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[Current Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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20 hours ago, m0us3y said:

@Golden Flower it's always interesting to read your analysis. They are always on another perspective. :)

We may agree or disagree, but we could at least see or understand. 

 

Just one thing tho. 

On the incident where the 3 girls fell out and embarrassed the family, but only RL and ML Got punished..

I agree that SH didn't know Molan instigated it. But he also didn't know If RL or ML did. 

It was ML's words against RL and ML. 

Yet he chose to believe Molan and punished the other 2. 

If he really doesnt know who instigated, should he punished all 3 the same way?

Why then did Molan got away scot free?

 

The issue is both CL and Molan know SH personality well and always know how to manipulate and say politically correct things so that he would trust them.  You should rewatch how they usually talk to SH. By the time CL and Molan show their true color when Molan's affair came out, SH punished them and ignored them. SH basically told Molan that he won't help her with anything in the future at her wedding and did not give a care when Molan was talking about erecting her mother's spiritual tablet (until her husband got involved).

They always talk to him politely, making themselves look pitiful and always admitted their faults first even if they were involved or not, and even if they don't believe they are at fault. They throw their temper tantrums and say bad things about others when SH is not present. In front of SH, they will never directly say bad things about Daninang, RL or ML or directly compare themselves to them. CL always say nice things about Daniang and RL still being young but then she will make her case saying "she is saying this for the family's reputation or for the good of the family."  On the other hand, RL and Daniang always try to argue with SH, always seem to point their fingers at CL and Molan, they compare themselves with CL and Molan by saying concubine and shu daughter in front of SH which can be seen very vicious and they look down and treat unfairly to CL and Molan. There is saying in my country "you get your work done by others if you speak nicely". I know Daninang and RL are righteous and they speak their mind directly. However, people can get annoyed and think you are rude, domineering and have bad personality. You have to remember they are in 11th century strict Confucius culture where respect to elders are viewed and valued highly. In that culture and time, one has to be humble and lowered yourself in front of elders even if you think you're right. Being father and head of household, SH will not like his daughters talk back to him even if they are trying to reason with him especially with the way RL talk to him. I was raised in a southeast asian culture where we have to say sorry and apologize to our parents, teachers and elders even if we think we weren't wrong. It is hard to  understand and explain to someone If they weren't raised in that kind of culture.

In that accident, RL and ML fell but Molan didn't.  She acted and said she found them sneaking around behind the curtain and she was going to tell them to go back but ended up startling them. Later, she kneeled and told SH to punish her too as she was responsible for younger sisters' act being the eldest girl (at that time since HL already married) in a very pitiful way. From the beginning, if RL said sorry, admitted that being there was wrong, apologized for being there and promised she won't do it again, I'm pretty sure SH would just ended with yelling at them or punishment will be very light. However, she argued with him that Molan was the one who went there first, she and ML were just following Molan, Molan should be punished too etc. This can be seen as she having no respect for father as well as older sister (can be seen as trying to backstab older sister). It made it worse when she try to hit Molan when Molan kneeld and pretended to willingly accept the punishment. ML was punished for just being there even though she didn't argue or say anything until she was forced by RL to say the truth. 

 

I just realized yesterday why viewers are accusing SH not being good father to ML and not showing fatherly love when she lost her mother as well as growing up. It is because the drama has been showing how GTY has been treating Ronger. The truth is father like GTY didn't exist in feudal society. It only exist in the dramas as the interaction between GTY and Ronger is more like 21st century father and daughter. Yes, I'm not a time-traveller and I don't know all the details of early Song dynasty. However, from what I learned from history and culture of the past and my own Asin culture and background, Chinese father are usually very strict and they won't show their affection to their children especially if they're daughter. The interaction between fathers and daughters are very minimal in those days. (I cannot say modern fathers in China in present time as one child policy forced chinese families value their daughters). To me, GTY dragging around 4-5 years old Ronger in Jiang Hu on horseback during that era when minor infections could kill adults easily is very unrealistic. They have never mentioned where he placed Ronger when he joined army camp near Youyang. With Shitou's family who move around from place to place and the last place they located was hundreds of miles away from Youyang? Being good father as he is like drama is portraying, he didn't feel worry about her safety and well-being?  Another thing that ticks me is Molan and Liang Hang affairs being promoted to having actual sexual relationship. Very unrealistic...I just regarded many scenes like those in this drama as just being a drama. :D  For Ying Guo Gong case, he and his wife only got involved when the daughter is near death from having difficult childbirth. They didn't interfere in the beginning when Zhang was mistreated by concubine and general Shen.  We cannot really compare this with SH and ML relationship since none of his daughters were in life and death situation so far. In the preview, it was shown that SH was there when ML was beating drum to get justice for GTY and supported her when she fainted. 

 

The production team should not have chosen a particular dynasty and just set it as a fantasy ancient dynasty and should not promote saying they follow rules, custom and culture of early Song dynasty if they're going to put 21st century elements for main OTPs while keeping other characters in ancient mode. Anyhow...it is each person's own viewing experience if they want to hate characters who aren't on the same side as OTP because they have been shown to follow the custom of the time. 

 

 

 

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Happy New Year Everyone!! Best wishes for good fortune and good health!!

Xīnchūn kuàilè

Gong Xi Fa Cai!! 

Xīnxiǎng shì chéng

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ML truly does have great foresight..and a fantastic grasp of character and situations around her...

 

While everyone thinks that ML condoned the harsh punishment of General Shen's concubine because of what she did to Mdm Zhang, she has considered a lot more, all the way to General Shen's children growing up under the Concubine if she isn't taken care of, ruining the children's future...

We can see that those thoughts have never occured to even General Shen as father or his sister, as the aunt..

 

The way it immediately clicked on her that ED is trying to manipulate the situation to her advantage only on 1 sentence from Mdm Zhang, follow up by her ever so daring proposal to the Empress, based on her observation that what others have said wasn't helping to ease the Empress's worries...

Plus the fact that her advise which the Empress acted on threw everyone off guard, including the ED..

 

And the way she deduced Aunt Kang's motives and actions, up to the point that she will use CB and RL's husband to get them to do her bidding..

 

She truly is a strategist through and through...

While everyone else plans 5 steps ahead, she's already looking 150 steps ahead. 

She's playing chess, while everyone else still seem to be playing checkers. 

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8 hours ago, sava2sava said:

 

Let's hope for a season 2, Showing how they children growing up and how loving GTY is towards his wife..

I remember you said he did fathered a daughter outside the marriage..Did ML bring the daughter in to be raised in the home ? 

 

Also do anyone have the links to episode 64 and 65 raw.. If so could you pls msgs it to me..

@sava2sava Are you talking about GTY??  GTY only fathered Rong’er and Chang’er by Maniang. Chang’er died and Rong’er has been cared for and treated like her own daughter by ML since their marriage. GTY doesn’t father anymore children out of wedlock...just 4 sons by ML (in novel). In novel spoilers they described first two sons. Oldest son seems is like GTY and second son seems scholarly like CB, I think. :lol:

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@Golden Flower I understand where you are coming from but that didn't explain why SH punished ML the same way when she did not say a word until forced. 

I understand and could see that CL and Molan is always either playing the nice guy (it's my fault, I should have taught them better, I should have stopped them etc) or playing the damsel in distress card. 

But If SH was punishing RL for being disrespectful, ML wasn't involved. She didn't help or pick any sides until she was pushed to tell the truth. Which she did.

And the dad did not believe. 

Which landed her the same punishment as RL which includes being disrespectful...for doing absolutely..nothing and staying low. 

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34 minutes ago, Golden Flower said:

The issue is both CL and Molan know SH personality well and always know how to manipulate and say politically correct things so that he would trust them.  You should rewatch how they usually talk to SH. By the time CL and Molan show their true color when Molan's affair came out, SH punished them and ignored them. SH basically told Molan that he won't help her with anything in the future at her wedding and did not give a care when Molan was talking about erecting her mother's spiritual tablet (until her husband got involved).

They always talk to him politely, making themselves look pitiful and always admitted their faults first even if they were involved or not, and even if they don't believe they are at fault. They throw their temper tantrums and say bad things about others when SH is not present. In front of SH, they will never directly say bad things about Daninang, RL or ML or directly compare themselves to them. CL always say nice things about Daniang and RL still being young but then she will make her case saying "she is saying this for the family's reputation or for the good of the family."  On the other hand, RL and Daniang always try to argue with SH, always seem to point their fingers at CL and Molan, they compare themselves with CL and Molan by saying concubine and shu daughter in front of SH which can be seen very vicious and they look down and treat unfairly to CL and Molan. There is saying in my country "you get your work done by others if you speak nicely". I know Daninang and RL are righteous and they speak their mind directly. However, people can get annoyed and think you are rude, domineering and have bad personality. You have to remember they are in 11th century strict Confucius culture where respect to elders are viewed and valued highly. In that culture and time, one has to be humble and lowered yourself in front of elders even if you think you're right. Being father and head of household, SH will not like his daughters talk back to him even if they are trying to reason with him especially with the way RL talk to him. I was raised in a southeast asian culture where we have to say sorry and apologize to our parents, teachers and elders even if we think we weren't wrong. It is hard to  understand and explain to someone If they weren't raised in that kind of culture.

In that accident, RL and ML fell but Molan didn't.  She acted and said she found them sneaking around behind the curtain and she was going to tell them to go back but ended up startling them. Later, she kneeled and told SH to punish her too as she was responsible for younger sisters' act being the eldest girl (at that time since HL already married) in a very pitiful way. From the beginning, if RL said sorry, admitted that being there was wrong, apologized for being there and promised she won't do it again, I'm pretty sure SH would just ended with yelling at them or punishment will be very light. However, she argued with him that Molan was the one who went there first, she and ML were just following Molan, Molan should be punished too etc. This can be seen as she having no respect for father as well as older sister (can be seen as trying to backstab older sister). It made it worse when she try to hit Molan when Molan kneeld and pretended to willingly accept the punishment. ML was punished for just being there even though she didn't argue or say anything until she was forced by RL to say the truth. 

 

I just realized yesterday why viewers are accusing SH not being good father to ML and not showing fatherly love when she lost her mother as well as growing up. It is because the drama has been showing how GTY has been treating Ronger. The truth is father like GTY didn't exist in feudal society. It only exist in the dramas as the interaction between GTY and Ronger is more like 21st century father and daughter. Yes, I'm not a time-traveller and I don't know all the details of early Song dynasty. However, from what I learned from history and culture of the past and my own Asin culture and background, Chinese father are usually very strict and they won't show their affection to their children especially if they're daughter. The interaction between fathers and daughters are very minimal in those days. (I cannot say modern fathers in China in present time as one child policy forced chinese families value their daughters). To me, GTY dragging around 4-5 years old Ronger in Jiang Hu on horseback during that era when minor infections could kill adults easily is very unrealistic. They have never mentioned where he placed Ronger when he joined army camp near Youyang. With Shitou's family who move around from place to place and the last place they located was hundreds of miles away from Youyang? Being good father as he is like drama is portraying, he didn't feel worry about her safety and well-being?  Another thing that ticks me is Molan and Liang Hang affairs being promoted to having actual sexual relationship. Very unrealistic...I just regarded many scenes like those in this drama as just being a drama. :D  For Ying Guo Gong case, he and his wife only got involved when the daughter is near death from having difficult childbirth. They didn't interfere in the beginning when Zhang was mistreated by concubine and general Shen.  We cannot really compare this with SH and ML relationship since none of his daughters were in life and death situation so far. In the preview, it was shown that SH was there when ML was beating drum to get justice for GTY and supported her when she fainted. 

 

The production team should not have chosen a particular dynasty and just set it as a fantasy ancient dynasty and should not promote saying they follow rules, custom and culture of early Song dynasty if they're going to put 21st century elements for main OTPs while keeping other characters in ancient mode. Anyhow...it is each person's own viewing experience if they want to hate characters who aren't on the same side as OTP because they have been shown to follow the custom of the time. 

 

 

 

If the main characters should be like sh and danniang i. e ordinary, selfish and having no affection towards children, well i willn't watch this drama. Sorry. :joy:

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10 minutes ago, m0us3y said:

@Golden Flower I understand where you are coming from but that didn't explain why SH punished ML the same way when she did not say a word until forced. 

I understand and could see that CL and Molan is always either playing the nice guy (it's my fault, I should have taught them better, I should have stopped them etc) or playing the damsel in distress card. 

But If SH was punishing RL for being disrespectful, ML wasn't involved. She didn't help or pick any sides until she was pushed to tell the truth. Which she did.

And the dad did not believe. 

Which landed her the same punishment as RL which includes being disrespectful...for doing absolutely..nothing and staying low. 

Yes, grandma complains that ml has always been punished eventhough she had done nothing (save maybe because of being at a wrong place at a wrong time). 

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34 minutes ago, Golden Flower said:

The production team should not have chosen a particular dynasty and just set it as a fantasy ancient dynasty and should not promote saying they follow rules, custom and culture of early Song dynasty if they're going to put 21st century elements for main OTPs while keeping other characters in ancient mode. Anyhow...it is each person's own viewing experience if they want to hate characters who aren't on the same side as OTP because they have been shown to follow the custom of the time.

According to the regulation of State Administration of Radio, Film and TV in China, any period drama must be set in a particular dynasty, otherwise it can't be released. That's a dilemma many period dramas face when they're apapted from novels with no specific dynasty backdrop. On the one hand they have to add some plot not in the novel but true to history, and on the other hand, they must try to keep the major storyline of the novel intact, as a large part of the viewers are novel fans. It's difficult to strike a balance between these two conflicting requirements, and so it's not surprising to see complaints from history lovers and book fans.

 

As for incorporating modern elements into period dramas, I think it's common practice and understandable. Dramas have to please modern viewers. If all the plot and characters are all written according the cultural and social norms of that era in ancient China, viewers would find it too boring and alienated. The drama probably wouldn't be a economic success then, a prospect not many producers or directors want to see.

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Sorry this can be off topic but...

Omg, I felt like I had this connection with Auntie Kang somewhere like I've seen her before. Took me long enough to remember her from NIF 1+2 and in AoL as Jinmi's mother. I swear she's so pretty tho, she can be that cold hearted neutral character to a heartbroken one, or be a strong supportive person, and here we have a spoilt villainess. :phew:

 

Oh yea, does anyone know if the grandmother will stay with Minglan or still the Sheng family afterwards like after the poison incident or when GTY and ML moves out of the capital?

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@matrim what you pointed out is so true.Also representation in an audio visual and print medium will be different.Therefore any literary  adaptation can't be lifted as is and made into a movie or drama.Their will be differences.

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6 minutes ago, Renaro Kopique said:

Oh yea, does anyone know if the grandmother will stay with Minglan or still the Sheng family afterwards like after the poison incident or when GTY and ML moves out of the capital?

Spoiler

In the novel Grandma stays with CB afterwards and they live outside the capital as CB is a local official. To stay with eldest son or eldest grandson is approved by customs, but to live in a granddaughter's household is out of the question. So filial as ML can't win the war of inviting Grandma to live with her, although she does make several attempts in the epilogue.

 

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17 minutes ago, matrim said:

According to the regulation of State Administration of Radio, Film and TV in China, any period drama must be set in a particular dynasty, otherwise it can't be released. That's a dilemma many period dramas face when they're apapted from novels with no specific dynasty backdrop. On the one hand they have to add some plot not in the novel but true to history, and on the other hand, they must try to keep the major storyline of the novel intact, as a large part of the viewers are novel fans. It's difficult to strike a balance between these two conflicting requirements, and so it's not surprising to see complaints from history lovers and book fans.

 

As for incorporating modern elements into period dramas, I think it's common practice and understandable. Dramas have to please modern viewers. If all the plot and characters are all written according the cultural and social norms of that era in ancient China, viewers would find it too boring and alienated. The drama probably wouldn't be a economic success then, a prospect not many producers or directors want to see.

Well said.. Thanks 

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@Golden Flower

I can understand some of your sentiments but at the end of the day this is an adaptation of a fictional transmigration lightnovel. We need the modern POV shown otherwise the story loses its 'essence'. If it were based on some ancient story script or historical account, then we could argue details.

 

Also, our understanding of rules and norms is based on historical records, books and accounts mostly written by men, who like SH, didn't have a clue what was going on in their backyards. Did people always adhere to these rigorous rules? The story is about a dysfunctional ancient grand family's backyard, not adhering to rules and narrated from a modern POV.  If you take this away, there is no drama.

 

Illicit affairs happened ie SH with CL and 6th Liang, so why is it unrealistic that Molan could have an illicit affair and the families quickly cover it up with marriage?

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22 hours ago, dito said:

According to the new preview....Kang Aunts mommy went crying to ED to complain. It seems its after Kang aunt dies. ED got another tool for free. :cold_sweat:

It was funny when QH flinched at GTY's bow....he thought GTY came to fight him.....and wth with QH's wife thinking her husband is a damsel in distress:lol:

And Fengxian is having a pity party with GTY....all with... I have no where to go.....my roof is leaking (not sure about this) blah blah blah.

Uh...she can go to one of the farmsteads :D for being Stepmom’s spy since the roof is only leaking because of the fire set by her fellow minions of Stepmom. I get she really didn’t have a choice but at least if she goes to one of the farmsteads, she can live peacefully under a solid roof? It’s not like her status will ever change in the Fu.

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39 minutes ago, Renaro Kopique said:

Sorry this can be off topic but...

Omg, I felt like I had this connection with Auntie Kang somewhere like I've seen her before. Took me long enough to remember her from NIF 1+2 and in AoL as Jinmi's mother. I swear she's so pretty tho, she can be that cold hearted neutral character to a heartbroken one, or be a strong supportive person, and here we have a spoilt villainess. :phew:

 

Oh yea, does anyone know if the grandmother will stay with Minglan or still the Sheng family afterwards like after the poison incident or when GTY and ML moves out of the capital?

Oh i don't remember if she's there in nif2.. but danniang is there in nif2 as xiao yuanxi's mom

SH in nif2 as the emperor

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8 hours ago, m0us3y said:

 

In the drama, even without the time travel element, grandma still really has no one that's related by 'flesh and blood'...

It's really nice to see regardless of the flesh and blood, she is ML's pillar of strength, her mentor, her everything..

That sometimes, 'flesh and blood' really don't amount to as much as love and care. 

Because, even with ML's flesh and blood connection with Sheng, she still really has no one but grandma to protect her...

Perhaps that's also how ML learned to love Rong'er as her own even if she's not her biological child...

 

In the novel, ML is a time traveller??? So when did the future ML replace past ML? Since she was a child?

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12 minutes ago, tinast said:

Oh i don't remember if she's there in nif2.. but danniang is there in nif2 as xiao yuanxi's mom

SH in nif2 as the emperor

What? Daniang too? SH was the emp? I didn't really pay attention oopsie. :astonished: I need to watch them again XD

She's seen around Lin Xi in S2, it's been so long but I think helps around with herbs and stuff while on the other hand she is on undercover.

Spoiler

N28cQRe.jpg

 

 

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10 hours ago, dito said:

 

I don't think 14 epis will be enough to show all this.

 

My dilemma exactly.. I was anxious when the episodes were too short, and now anxious when they lengthened the episodes :w00t:

 

8 hours ago, m0us3y said:

 

In the drama, even without the time travel element, grandma still really has no one that's related by 'flesh and blood'...

It's really nice to see regardless of the flesh and blood, she is ML's pillar of strength, her mentor, her everything..

That sometimes, 'flesh and blood' really don't amount to as much as love and care. 

Because, even with ML's flesh and blood connection with Sheng, she still really has no one but grandma to protect her...

Perhaps that's also how ML learned to love Rong'er as her own even if she's not her biological child...

 

 

For me her little monologue in the novel gives out the feeling of pity, because by modern standard grandma is a childless old lady surrounded by people who are bounded by confucianism to treat her well, sincere or not is up to debate. But drama minglan only feels love and full of filial piety because she sees grandma as her own grandmother who raise her. While book minglan seems more clear that grandma is her benefactor who treated her well and protected her, somewhere along the way she genuinely comes to love her.

 

Ml’s relationship with rong er is a mix of grandma’s teaching, her own self who always pity illegitimate children and maybe the fact that she at that point didnt love gty yet, so she saw it as part of the job. But afterwards you can see ml really is fond of rong er and the cousin.

 

What stood out for me in ep 59 was when ml threw the tea cup after the biao mei said auntie kang was planning to harm gty.. ooohhhh the love comes creeping in :wub:

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11 minutes ago, Renaro Kopique said:

What? Daniang too? SH was the emp? I didn't really pay attention oopsie. :astonished: I need to watch them again XD

She's seen around Lin Xi in S2, it's been so long but I think helps around with herbs and stuff while on the other hand she is on undercover.

  Hide contents

N28cQRe.jpg

 

 

Oww ic.. i don't remember her since it was a short appearance. Just a few episodes. An assassin

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