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[Current Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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@Golden Flower actually the "reason" for SH to favour CL over his main wife because he was also a concubine's son is..."interesting". 

 

For if so, why did he favour one concubine (CL) over the other (ML's mom), as they are both concubines, getting very different treatment. 

If he was once being discriminated  as the son of concubine, why favour Molan over ML when they are both concubines' daughters? Isn't he repeating the mistake that his parents made?

 

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1 hour ago, Golden Flower said:

@minglan1 @m0us3y I would just say wait and see the complete conversation of grandma and ML in upcoming epi to understand SH's reaction and position. If grandma herself who was the victim was telling ML not to take revenge on behalf of her, there are definite valid reasons. Although I agree and understand ML's reaction towards her father being from 21st century person living in the west, we need to remember that SH is ML's father and they're in 11th century society which emphasized on filial piety and family reputation. SH tried to attend court first day since he didn't know grandma was being poisoned, and second day after finding out poisoning as he couldn't arrange Aunty Kang's punishment without reporting to the city court. He being a righteous official would not think to bring Aunty Kang by lying her like ML did. His suggestion to ML was to talk to Kang husband in normal way. He didn't think of involving Wang family as his wife herself was the one who sent the fruit desserts. If he reported the case to court, Daniang, Kang and Wang family will be involved and everyone's names will be ruined. Since grandma didn't die, he thought nursing grandma back with best medicine would be best and he would punish daniang after grandma getting better. Since there is nothing he can do, of course, he will go to his job as being absent too long is not good for his new position, just being promoted. 

ML's doing things over her parents' authority and confining her own parents in their courtyard is totally unacceptable during that time. At that time, you're not even supposed to raise your voice towards your parents. Please remember how SH talks to grandma even though she is not his biological mother. He did not even make face even when he disagrees with grandma. He would tell her his thoughts and asked her to explain her reasoning but never made face or raised his voice at her. Since I already posted about SH's character, I'm not going to say more. Just try to see things from characters' shoes not from ML's POV. 

What you said about SH holds correct from the POV of the times they were in.Since the drama is being telecast in our era it needs to suit our taste too.Being a fictional show it can be accomplished. Kept interesting by blending something of the past and present.

Thus ML can behave like a modern era heroine,GTY can be progressive in his thought process and turn the world upside down to get acceptance for it.

CL getting upper hand in the Sheng household management and SH being comfortable with it.

 

I like how it gives a decent peek into ancient China but doesn't bombard too much about it.I am looking forward for the upcoming episodes as it picks up intensity and pace towards the climax. 

 

To add from the aspect of the series if I have to justify ML's fiery reaction to grandma's poisoning v/s calm one to aunt Kangs's concubine scheme, it was also due to the fact that it was her home turf.She had backing of grandma who held the decision reins in the house.Her husband'a support gave the backing of her illustrious inlaw house.

 

Things were not so settled in the Gu house in her favor to flex her power even if she was on the right.She had to do things in a roundabout way. She explained the reasons to her maids in episode 59 why she acted the way she did.If she came from an influential house like Madam Zhang's she would have been more fierce while dealing with stepmom and Aunt Kang in Gu manor.

 

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2 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

I'm sorry to say this but you're comparing apple and orange and also thinking highly of SH. SH is only 5th grade level scholar official with no power in court (he only got promoted to 4th grade this episode). He also doesn't come from noble family though grandma (who is also not his biological mom) was only daughter of Marquis of Yongyi, she already severed her ties with her maiden family. His late father was also not former influential official like Wang's dead father who was honored in imperial ancestral temple (though grandpa Sheng gained 3rd place in imperial court exam and true scholar). Hualan's in-laws are hereditary noble Count family though they were not in favor with current emperor. Their position is much higher than Sheng family. Plus, Hualan did not face near death during her delivery or pregnancy. Her mistreatment was related to financial means by her mom-in-law not from Count himself and this can be passed by saying HL herself contributed to family expenses being filial. Her son being taken away by her mom-in-law is also NOT a crime. Grandmother can raise her own grandson (in some cases it is being considered favorable for the child in case of ML since grandma came from noble family) and favorable especially since HL's husband is second son who has no right to inherit the title (so neither HL's son). Also, her mom-in-law could say that she has doubts about HL's ability and integrity to raise her grandson after Molan's scandal. The children being burned by fire burner can be considered accident and negligence of the servants not cuz of her mom-in-law.  

Zhang family has Ying Guo Gong (duke) title, 1st grade official and Guo Gong himself is accomplished general and established minister for three emperors (unlike QH's father who wasn't accomplished and doesn't have real official position though he also is a hereditary Guo Gong). Like I mentioned in earlier post, emperor decreed this marriage so that he, empress family and Huan wang can get support from older ministers with established power in the capital and their marriage is considered state's affair. Please remember emperor and empress family and relatives came from You Zhou and have no established power or big army in the capital. So, only daughter of this family had difficult early birth due to concubine Zhou bumping into her (though supposedly accident), almost died not getting immediate treatment by imperial doctor (whom Zhang family invited to help with the delivery) as well as General Shen himself not treating his new main wife and CZ right (he is not supposed to let CZ disrespect the main wife, attending parties though concubines aren't supposed to) became not only a big political issue but also a crime committed by Shen family. It was never new main wife's fault as she has been avoiding the conflicts with CZ, even dismissed her not to pay respect to her, stayed mainly in her own courtyard and avoided a lot of parties that CZ was attending.  Thus, Yin Guo Gong couples have every right to request to either send away CZ or dissolve the marriage amicably. Since YGG has always been righteous, it was life/death situation and not their daughter's fault, they even dare to plan to send her to the temple if she no longer wants to stay in this marriage (meaning if she gets sick of unprotected and unloving husband). I guess she decided to go back to general manor after CZ and her family was punished as she starts having feelings towards her husband as well as she knows her husband already developed feelings for her as well and her marriage will be fine as long as CZ behaves and not favored.  

Other posters like @linhlinh111 and @martin already pointed out the importance of scholar officials needing to have clean reputations in the court for them being able to survive in their officialship. The officials can be found fault not only in your job performance but also for also your societal role and reputation related to filial piety, dealing with relatives/ in-laws, disciplining your children and servants, and family reputation as a whole being head of household. The minimal punishment will be losing your salary for a time period, not being promoted or being demoted. You also have to remember that during that era, losing your job is not just losing it, your properties will be confasticated and you and even your family will be exiled as the most lenient punishment for that kind of crime (sometimes being jailed or killed). 

 

This is very similar situation with SH's reaction to Molan's husband request of his presence at CL's spiritual tablet erecting ceremony supposed to be held by Molan. I saw a lot of comments bashing SH and saying he still favored children of CL over ML because of his love for CL. If you watch carefully and pay attention to the conversation, SH ignored Molan. He did not say anything or have any reaction when Daniang told Molan to close her mouth and stopped talking about CL. However, Molan was very crafty and made request in front of her husband instead of in private with her father. Then, her husband who did not know the whole CL's situation, started persuading SH on behalf of his wife since CL being his real mom-in-law. Please remember Molan's husband Liang Han did not know about CL helping arrange Molan meet Liang Han and spread the news of their involvement and LH carrying Molan at the temple. In addition, SH has to give some face to this son-in-law who came from noble County family since his family status is higher than Sheng. (You can see SH gave GTY's face too by listening to him as GTY is a third grade official as well as Marquis when he stepped in.)  If he kept his silence or kept refusing the request, he needs to give a solid reason to LH, meaning he has to reveal why CL's was buried in farmstead and why her spiritual tablet is not at the temple. Then, Liang family will not only look down on Molan but the news will spread and the whole Sheng family's reputation will be ruined. He also need to deny about ML's mom death in front of LH even if he found out the truth from ML (I doubt he knew the truth till ML brought up about witness and doctor's testimony) to save his family's reputation. If his family's name is ruined, not only his official position, but also CB's officialdom, CF's career and the lives of all his 4 daughters at their in-laws' homes will be at risk. By having one CL killed another CL and him not knowing, he can lose his officialdom or at least be punished and all his kids are at risk, especially CF and Molan. Thus, accusing him of not loving ML and only favoring CL's children is too extreme. If you look at beginning episodes, there are a few scenes where SH's eyes expressions show his love for ML. Although it was not shown but briefly mentioned that he took ML to Daniang's courtyard and asked her to be raised together with HL and RL. It is just that drama doesn't really have much time to show his fatherly side towards ML and they dramatized and spent a lot more time about his relationship with CL. Also, you need to remember all people in Sheng family has been fed and clothed by SH's salary and income from his properties. Although ML was raised by grandma, the money they spent and their pocket money all come from common which is SH's money. The grandma, Daniang and CL have their own personal separate income which they saved and used for their children future and dowry. SH didn't help CL cover up with ML's mom death. It was CL who was clever enough to make it hard to find fault blaming everything on servants and those servants such as Momo who could deliver mainly come from Wang family with Daniang. Unfortunately, grandma, SH and Daniang were all out of town and CL was able to manipulate everything to be rid of most of the faults off her shoulder.  She made it so that her main fault was not being able to control the servants and ask them to work diligently but she also claimed that the servants didn't listen to her. So, SH took away her authority to manage the house and neglected her for a while. Yes, it was his fault in favoring CL more than he should.  However, we have to remember SH's weakness of his childhood trauma of his mother and him being treated badly by his father's other wives and ignored by grandma who was main wife. In addition, CL made him feel that he owed it to her (her children as well via her) for becoming his mere concubine (not even highly honored concubine, there are different levels of concubine in chinese) though she is a talented di daughter from good official family (Both CL's parents are from good scholar official families and her father was also a mid level official. If her father didn't die early and her mother couldn't manage the family properties well, she wouldn't end up being poor and sent to grandma). Some of you might argue that he could have investigated more thoroughly like ML finding the doctor who took her mom pulse once but he didn't even know that doctor existed or what that doctor told CL since CL got rid of everyone who can be on CW's side including Shao Tie. ML's mom death not getting justice at that time was not only SH's fault but also partly grandma's. Being the oldest and main mother of the family, SH requested her involvement and manage the house but he ignored his request and only took ML in, told him to sell the servants at the capital and told him to treat the main wife right. That's why grandma apologized to ML for not taking her sufferings into consideration when ML took the matter into her own hands and got the testimony from the doctor. 

I have restrained commenting on some of the characters like Sheng Hong, Daniang, QH, stepmom, Aunty Kang, QH's wife since most of the posters here are not seeing them from their perspectives but considered them plain evil since they disrespect ML, harm ML and give her and GTY troubles and I did not want to type more arguments. I hope this long post won't cause displeasures for a lot of you. I just think that we should watch the drama like this for story, all characters' development, and presentation not just for OTP's moments. The reason that I have interest in this drama is because all the characters are grey (not all black or all white, villains characters' motives can also be reasoned and understood) though the writers still make OTP characters a lot more favorable, more flushed out compared to other characters and ML involved in every single problem/issue even before she got married. I think the reasons these characters being hated by viewers especially international viewers are (1) their background story and their characters are not being flushed out well/ not enough time to show though mentioned briefly here and there (it is hard for viewers to understand, absorb and remember everything from subtitles) (2) trying to force or include some of the new/ unimportant plots so that they can involve ML or give more OTP time (3) trying to dramatize some scenes though they don't follow the logic of previous scenes. (I have given examples of some scenes two weeks ago but I'm not going to do that here as too long to explain some nuances in writing and not as effective as explaining verbally.)

Insightful and well commented. Thank you.

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such a long paragraph to read lah............ interesting 

 

5 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

@sava2sava From the trailer, though it is very hard to identify the woman who was trying to stab ML and/or her newborn, it doesn't seem to be MN. I don't think MN is going to reappear again since her son is already dead.

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In the novel, MN tried to kill ML manipulated by stepmom since her son is not dead yet. I believe it is Aunty Kang who was trying to stab ML and her new born. In upcoming episode, I'm guessing she will be divorced from her husband and sent to farmstead instead of being imprisoned like in the novel. (I'm just deducing from the conversations from previews as grandma regained conscious and was stressing about influence of dead wang's father and needing to continue to be their in-laws. So, I think Aunty Kang won't be killed or imprisoned.) So, she will come back with the help of stepmom during ML's delivery. Since she tries to kill the son and noble wife of Marquis GTY who is third grade official in front of many servants, I think the crime will be more serious than poisoning the grandma through the hands of daniang. In addition, after fire broke out, everyone will know about the whole ordeal and GTY is not really in-laws with Kangs or Wangs. So, the case could be formally brought into court to get justice. Unlike GTY, SH's need to care about implicating his wife who actually sent the fruit desserts, wang being in-laws, only Sheng, Wang and Kang families know about the case and Sheng's family reputation plus he is just an scholar official who is not close associate of neither ED nor emperor. 

 

Wait what trailer do you have a link? 

 

 

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So in viki its takes only to ep 60 to catch up with the eps thats airing in china (tv version?) but the tv version is already at ep 66. Im quite confused, i saw people say viki is airing uncut, but does it still ends at ep 79?

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9 minutes ago, bulubulu said:

So in viki its takes only to ep 60 to catch up with the eps thats airing in china (tv version?) but the tv version is already at ep 66. Im quite confused, i saw people say viki is airing uncut, but does it still ends at ep 79?

Not sure about viki, but tencent's episode up to 79. I don't think 60th episode has caught up with tv version. 

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6 minutes ago, leeza77 said:

Not sure about viki, but tencent's episode up to 79. I don't think 60th episode has caught up with tv version. 

I checked a while ago and it seems that in viki eps are already up to date with the tv version when ep 60 comes out later. I might be wrong, correct me or so :)

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7 hours ago, m0us3y said:

@Golden Flower actually the "reason" for SH to favour CL over his main wife because he was a also a concubine's son is...interesting. 

 

For if so, why did he favour one concubine (CL) over the other (ML's mom), as they are both concubines, getting very different treatment. 

If he was once being discriminated  as the son of concubine, why favour Molan over ML when they are both concubines' daughters? Isn't he repeating the mistake that his parents made?

 

You missed a point that I already mentioned or maybe you didn't get it as I didn't mention much about CW. SH favoring CL is NOT ONLY because she is the concubine and he is the son of concubine who was mistreated. You're right in that CW is also concubine too but the two concubines' situations and personalities are different. CW is an uneducated person (doesn't mean she can't read or write at all) coming from merchant family needing money to pay for her father's medical treatment though CW's father is educated. Daniang bought her from her family to be concubine of SH in hoping that younger CW could take SH's attention away from CL. SH thought he and CL were in love, she became his concubine by sacrificing her livelihood by lowering her station a lot in the name of love and thus he felt he owed CL and her children a lot for making her his concubine who could have been the main wife of another official though that person's position might not be as high as him. Plus, CL cries and complains to him a lot to get his attention all the time that he even thinks that Daniang mistreated her. As you already know, Daniang has short-tempered and foul mouth. So, SH believed that CL and her children were mistreated when she complained. On the other hand, CW did not sacrifice anything for him, she is Daniang's person and she won't be mistreated by her. CW also did not complain anything to either Daniang or SH. When ML complained to SH about not having coals and food, he did try to get everything sorted out for them. Also, later ML was raised by grandma who is supposed to have best authority, power and name in the family but Molan was raised by CL. So, he knows that ML's prospect is better than Molan. I think he is being fair to all his children regards to looking for their marriage prospects and their education. For their marriages, he considered every single aspects, talked to people, visited the houses of prospective in-laws for HL, CB and Molan. He did not do anything for ML's marriage as it was grandma's decision. He also hasn't done anything for RL's marriage as she was supposed to marry her cousin from Wang's family which he already knew well enough. He knew Molan's situation as a shu daughter raised by CL and that's why he choose RL's husband for Molan who has potential but a lot lower status than his family so that they have a say in this son-in-law if he didn't treat Molan right. CL wasn't satisfied with the arrangement since it was the same situation as her when Sheng grandma arranged marriage for her when she was young. Like I said, the writer dramatized by including the situation like SH begging grandma to let the girls go back to school was due to CL. Other situations like SH punishing RL & ML, punishing Daniang, being in Molan's side in some situations are because of CL's manipulation and for family's reputation. You can argue that his reaction of RL's meeting was harsher than towards Molan's bed affair but it is because (1) the potential husband GTY himself saw RL and her lover meeting (2) the marriage already reached and approved by the emperor (Molan was caught by himself and he thought nobody knew in the beginning until a couple of days later he found out from HL that the news about Liang Han carrying Molan was spread by CL) (3) RL's lover was the one who he intended for Molan (whose position is much lower for RL, di daughter). He beat CL to almost death and ignored her when he found out she spread the rumors to ruin the family's name risking the livelihoods of all his daughters, sons and himself and she lied to him all along. 

Spoiler

CL herself is educated, talented in four arts, di daughter of mid-level official and from the family of officials (both parents). She became poor and came to grandma's care because of her mother's mismanagement of family's properties after her father died early. The grandma was the acquaintance of her mother during their unmarried days (being acquaintance with a Marquis daughter who has stayed in palace for a time showed that her mom is also from good official family). Her dying mother sent her to Sheng grandma since she thinks that her daughter prospects of getting good marriage is better off then sending her to her relatives. CL tried to seduce SH and become his concubine saying it is because she loves him (though the real reason was she does not feel satisfy to marry poor scholar who hasn't attained official position and have properties like SH). Please remember that SH at that time CL came under Sheng grandma care was already 7th grade level official, he has a di mother who is Marquis daughter and main wife from Wang family whose father's influence was high in court (actually Daniang's father influence is still there in court as he has been an honored official and that is one reason grandma mentioned to ML that she cannot take harsh revenge on Aunty Kang in preview). CL rather wanted to become concubine of SH who had a lot of potential thinking that if she could influence him she could be even comparable to the main wife. 

@minglan1 I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I personally agree with what ML is doing as a 21st century person but I'm trying to mention other character's perspective (being SH as eg here) and explain their situations as I felt that some posters aren't understanding or getting all nuances right for some characters due to drama's time and writing. If the viewers understand the era and situations characters were in but would criticize them harshly over and over again no matter what because they just hate them for attacking ML and OTP then I understand and I have nothing to say :D:D:D. That's why I have been refraining myself for posting any comments for over a week as I don't want to explain my points again and again like @gleek49 did for QH's wife character. I decided to write today as I have time and I thought the drama is near ending and the characters are well-developed already that viewers should understand their predicaments. Cheers!

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12 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

 

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@minglan1 I'm pretty sure I mentioned that I personally agree with what ML is doing as a 21st century person but I'm trying to mention other character's perspective (being SH as eg here) and explain their situations as I felt that some posters aren't understanding or getting all nuances right for some characters due to time and writing. If the viewers understand the era and situations characters were in but would criticize them harshly over and over again no matter what because they just hate them for attacking ML and OTP then I understand and I have nothing to say :D:D:D. That's why I have been refraining myself for posting any comments for over a week as I don't want to explain my points again and again like @gleek49. I decided to write today as I have time and I thought the drama is near ending and the characters are well-developed already that viewers should understand their predicaments. Cheers!

I get what you are saying.I don't dispute the rationale that you have so painstakingly outlined.You have taken time to draw similarities and differences between the novel, book and prevelant customs of the era.

I personally go through this experience too when a classic that I loved to read is adapted and strays.International viewers not getting the nuances that I can fathom and want them to see it too.Today the shoe is on the reverse foot.:) It gives me a fresh perspective to look at things.It is nice reading you and other posters here who provide the historical angle of the time period.

 But for dramas history is just a prop to be taken seriously up to a point.If they remained faithful to the time period QH , GTY ,ML, Rulan,Molan and her beaus wouldn't  have interacted this way and neither the ratings would have climbed.:D

 

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19 minutes ago, bulubulu said:

I checked a while ago and it seems that in viki eps are already up to date with the tv version when ep 60 comes out later. I might be wrong, correct me or so :)

How do you watch ep 60 at viki.. My apps ep 60 is yet to be broadcasted. 

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1 minute ago, leeza77 said:

How do you watch ep 60 at viki.. My apps ep 60 is yet to be broadcasted. 

Viki has uploaded 60 and 61.They were surprisingly quick today

 

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2 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

I'm sorry to say this but you're comparing apple and orange and also thinking highly of SH. SH is only 5th grade level scholar official with no power in court (he only got promoted to 4th grade this episode). He also doesn't come from noble family though grandma (who is also not his biological mom) was only daughter of Marquis of Yongyi, she already severed her ties with her maiden family. His late father was also not former influential official like Wang's dead father who was honored in imperial ancestral temple (though grandpa Sheng gained 3rd place in imperial court exam and true scholar). Hualan's in-laws are hereditary noble Count family though they were not in favor with current emperor. Their position is much higher than Sheng family. Plus, Hualan did not face near death during her delivery or pregnancy. Her mistreatment was related to financial means by her mom-in-law not from Count himself and this can be passed by saying HL herself contributed to family expenses being filial. Her son being taken away by her mom-in-law is also NOT a crime. Grandmother can raise her own grandson (in some cases it is being considered favorable for the child in case of ML since grandma came from noble family) and favorable especially since HL's husband is second son who has no right to inherit the title (so neither HL's son). Also, her mom-in-law could say that she has doubts about HL's ability and integrity to raise her grandson after Molan's scandal. The children being burned by fire burner can be considered accident and negligence of the servants not cuz of her mom-in-law.  

Zhang family has Ying Guo Gong (duke) title, 1st grade official and Guo Gong himself is accomplished general and established minister for three emperors (unlike QH's father who wasn't accomplished and doesn't have real official position though he also is a hereditary Guo Gong). Like I mentioned in earlier post, emperor decreed this marriage so that he, empress family and Huan wang can get support from older ministers with established power in the capital and their marriage is considered state's affair. Please remember emperor and empress family and relatives came from You Zhou and have no established power or big army in the capital. So, only daughter of this family had difficult early birth due to concubine Zhou bumping into her (though supposedly accident), almost died not getting immediate treatment by imperial doctor (whom Zhang family invited to help with the delivery) as well as General Shen himself not treating his new main wife and CZ right (he is not supposed to let CZ disrespect the main wife, attending parties though concubines aren't supposed to) became not only a big political issue but also a crime committed by Shen family. It was never new main wife's fault as she has been avoiding the conflicts with CZ, even dismissed her not to pay respect to her, stayed mainly in her own courtyard and avoided a lot of parties that CZ was attending.  Thus, Yin Guo Gong couples have every right to request to either send away CZ or dissolve the marriage amicably. Since YGG has always been righteous, it was life/death situation and not their daughter's fault, they even dare to plan to send her to the temple if she no longer wants to stay in this marriage (meaning if she gets sick of unprotected and unloving husband). I guess she decided to go back to general manor after CZ and her family was punished as she starts having feelings towards her husband as well as she knows her husband already developed feelings for her as well and her marriage will be fine as long as CZ behaves and not favored.  

Other posters like @linhlinh111 and @martin already pointed out the importance of scholar officials needing to have clean reputations in the court for them being able to survive in their officialship. The officials can be found fault not only in your job performance but also for also your societal role and reputation related to filial piety, dealing with relatives/ in-laws, disciplining your children and servants, and family reputation as a whole being head of household. The minimal punishment will be losing your salary for a time period, not being promoted or being demoted. You also have to remember that during that era, losing your job is not just losing it, your properties will be confasticated and you and even your family will be exiled as the most lenient punishment for that kind of crime (sometimes being jailed or killed). 

 

This is very similar situation with SH's reaction to Molan's husband request of his presence at CL's spiritual tablet erecting ceremony supposed to be held by Molan. I saw a lot of comments bashing SH and saying he still favored children of CL over ML because of his love for CL. If you watch carefully and pay attention to the conversation, SH ignored Molan. He did not say anything or have any reaction when Daniang told Molan to close her mouth and stopped talking about CL. However, Molan was very crafty and made request in front of her husband instead of in private with her father. Then, her husband who did not know the whole CL's situation, started persuading SH on behalf of his wife since CL being his real mom-in-law. Please remember Molan's husband Liang Han did not know about CL helping arrange Molan meet Liang Han and spread the news of their involvement and LH carrying Molan at the temple. In addition, SH has to give some face to this son-in-law who came from noble County family since his family status is higher than Sheng. (You can see SH gave GTY's face too by listening to him as GTY is a third grade official as well as Marquis when he stepped in.)  If he kept his silence or kept refusing the request, he needs to give a solid reason to LH, meaning he has to reveal why CL's was buried in farmstead and why her spiritual tablet is not at the temple. Then, Liang family will not only look down on Molan but the news will spread and the whole Sheng family's reputation will be ruined. He also need to deny about ML's mom death in front of LH even if he found out the truth from ML (I doubt he knew the truth till ML brought up about witness and doctor's testimony) to save his family's reputation. If his family's name is ruined, not only his official position, but also CB's officialdom, CF's career and the lives of all his 4 daughters at their in-laws' homes will be at risk. By having one CL killed another CL and him not knowing, he can lose his officialdom or at least be punished and all his kids are at risk, especially CF and Molan. Thus, accusing him of not loving ML and only favoring CL's children is too extreme. If you look at beginning episodes, there are a few scenes where SH's eyes expressions show his love for ML. Although it was not shown but briefly mentioned that he took ML to Daniang's courtyard and asked her to be raised together with HL and RL. It is just that drama doesn't really have much time to show his fatherly side towards ML and they dramatized and spent a lot more time about his relationship with CL. Also, you need to remember all people in Sheng family has been fed and clothed by SH's salary and income from his properties. Although ML was raised by grandma, the money they spent and their pocket money all come from common which is SH's money. The grandma, Daniang and CL have their own personal separate income which they saved and used for their children future and dowry. SH didn't help CL cover up with ML's mom death. It was CL who was clever enough to make it hard to find fault blaming everything on servants and those servants such as Momo who could deliver mainly come from Wang family with Daniang. Unfortunately, grandma, SH and Daniang were all out of town and CL was able to manipulate everything to be rid of most of the faults off her shoulder.  She made it so that her main fault was not being able to control the servants and ask them to work diligently but she also claimed that the servants didn't listen to her. So, SH took away her authority to manage the house and neglected her for a while. Yes, it was his fault in favoring CL more than he should.  However, we have to remember SH's weakness of his childhood trauma of his mother and him being treated badly by his father's other wives and ignored by grandma who was main wife. In addition, CL made him feel that he owed it to her (her children as well via her) for becoming his mere concubine (not even highly honored concubine, there are different levels of concubine in chinese) though she is a talented di daughter from good official family (Both CL's parents are from good scholar official families and her father was also a mid level official. If her father didn't die early and her mother couldn't manage the family properties well, she wouldn't end up being poor and sent to grandma). Some of you might argue that he could have investigated more thoroughly like ML finding the doctor who took her mom pulse once but he didn't even know that doctor existed or what that doctor told CL since CL got rid of everyone who can be on CW's side including Shao Tie. ML's mom death not getting justice at that time was not only SH's fault but also partly grandma's. Being the oldest and main mother of the family, SH requested her involvement and manage the house but he ignored his request and only took ML in, told him to sell the servants at the capital and told him to treat the main wife right. That's why grandma apologized to ML for not taking her sufferings into consideration when ML took the matter into her own hands and got the testimony from the doctor. 

I have restrained commenting on some of the characters like Sheng Hong, Daniang, QH, stepmom, Aunty Kang, QH's wife since most of the posters here are not seeing them from their perspectives but considered them plain evil since they disrespect ML, harm ML and give her and GTY troubles and I did not want to type more arguments. I hope this long post won't cause displeasures for a lot of you. I just think that we should watch the drama like this for story, all characters' development, and presentation not just for OTP's moments. The reason that I have interest in this drama is because all the characters are grey (not all black or all white, villains characters' motives can also be reasoned and understood) though the writers still make OTP characters a lot more favorable, more flushed out compared to other characters and ML involved in every single problem/issue even before she got married. I think the reasons these characters being hated by viewers especially international viewers are (1) their background story and their characters are not being flushed out well/ not enough time to show though mentioned briefly here and there (it is hard for viewers to understand, absorb and remember everything from subtitles) (2) trying to force or include some of the new/ unimportant plots so that they can involve ML or give more OTP time (3) trying to dramatize some scenes though they don't follow the logic of previous scenes. (I have given examples of some scenes two weeks ago but I'm not going to do that here as too long to explain some nuances in writing and not as effective as explaining verbally.)

 

Well I didnt say sh should barge into  hualan’s house and drag her back home.  But he didnt even bat an eyelash, a bit surprised but then let it go, danniang even wanted to go there and make ruckus but was stopped by hualan. That’s what you are supposed to do when you love a person, much like what minglan is doing. Going against her father, the elderls, risked being called unfilial and arrogant but would still go through it to get justice. 

 

There are roundabout ways to give justice to hualan, as you mentioned it was her mother in law being vicious, sh could have put pressure to her husband by playing the father in law role, or subtly talk about it with hualan’s father in law, but he wont because all he cares about is his face and career, that’s why I and perhaps others dont like him.

 

 Your reason of liking the drama is valid, just like the reason I started following the drama is because I like book minglan the time traveller who cleverly navigate the ancient era, the fact that the male lead is not the usual perfect male lead and one of my fav actress zly who played the lead role, so as you can see I’m more attached to the characters or otp as you called it. 

 

I really dont mind people give various opinions, some people can like the story, the settings, the characters or even the actors. As I remember this thread was started by zly’s fans who dont even know the story yet, so attachment to otp is normal. Let’s just enjoy the drama and not police others how they want to enjoy the drama

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10 minutes ago, leeza77 said:

How do you watch ep 60 at viki.. My apps ep 60 is yet to be broadcasted. 

They just uploaded it. Try checking again.

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@GoldenFlower ML's mom read a book about military  strategies to her.Purely going by the drama I felt she had an educated background.I am not sure if they were referring to the SunTzu's book or the book of Qi the subtitles weren't  clear on that.

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12 minutes ago, bulubulu said:

They just uploaded it. Try checking again.

Saw it without subs.. 61th did catch up with half of 66th tv version... Hunan tv editing is really erratic. Tonight only 1 episode. Tomorrow none. For one episode broadcast hunan just aired it for 15 minutes.. No wonder webcast can catchup. In taiwan line tv has to stop the broadcasting for a while as it has broadcast ahead of hunan

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6 hours ago, nichiwoohee said:

 

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In the novel the stepmom did bring mn back, this is around the same time of ml’s first baby delivery. But the drama made the stepmom brought back mn before ml was pregnant, so idk what will happen next

 

one of the reason ml doubted gty’s feeling is because she was disappointed that gty only exiled mn when she almost killed her. So I thought maybe the drama took that plot and give it to the shen

 

Thanks @nichiwoohee  

 

6 hours ago, m0us3y said:

The granny poisoning incident is harder to take than I imagined. 

I loved ML and I loved granny and so I was prepared for this to be heartbreaking, but it's still worse than I thought...and this is only preview...

Show really set it up for us to be so invested in their relationship...

When ML sobbed inside granny's room, my heart broke with hers. And the first thing that came to mind was "GTY come back already! ML needs you, even if it's just a shoulder for her to cry on.."

Thankfully, in the next preview, GTY turned up! 

Good to see that he's there for her when she needed him most, just the same way she was always there for him when his going gets tough...

@m0us3y  It's kind of hard to believe he can't feel his wifes love for him..  How hard is it to distinguish between Manning and Ming Lang.. He took Manning words a face value believing her every words and yet Ming Lan displays hers..  Upon hearing about Granny and knowing what kind of shady character SH is of course he'll rush back to his wife side.. By now he has to be missing her some kind of terrible not being able to be there to pamper her during her first pregnancy going on those midnght food runs for her allow her to sleep til 3 in the afternoon..  It's good to no that they both there for one another even if she hasn't told him she loves him..

 

@nichiwoohee  & @GoldenFlower  

Spoiler
6 hours ago, Golden Flower said:
6 hours ago, nichiwoohee said:
Spoiler

one of the reason ml doubted gty’s feeling is because she was disappointed that gty only exiled mn when she almost killed her. So I thought maybe the drama took that plot and give it to the shen

 

@sava2sava From the trailer, though it is very hard to identify the woman who was trying to stab ML and/or her newborn, it doesn't seem to be MN. I don't think MN is going to reappear again since her son is already dead.

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In the novel, MN tried to kill ML manipulated by stepmom since her son is not dead yet. I believe it is Aunty Kang who was trying to stab ML and her new born. In upcoming episode, I'm guessing she will be divorced from her husband and sent to farmstead instead of being imprisoned like in the novel. (I'm just deducing from the conversations from previews as grandma regained conscious and was stressing about influence of dead wang's father and needing to continue to be their in-laws. So, I think Aunty Kang won't be killed or imprisoned.) So, she will come back with the help of stepmom during ML's delivery. Since she tries to kill the son and noble wife of Marquis GTY who is third grade official in front of many servants, I think the crime will be more serious than poisoning the grandma through the hands of daniang. In addition, after fire broke out, everyone will know about the whole ordeal and GTY is not really in-laws with Kangs or Wangs. So, the case could be formally brought into court to get justice. Unlike GTY, SH's need to care about implicating his wife who actually sent the fruit desserts, wang being in-laws, only Sheng, Wang and Kang families know about the case and Sheng's family reputation plus he is just an scholar official who is not close associate of neither ED nor emperor. 

 I can kind of understand why GTY didn't kill Manning.. How would that look to his daughter also this will also stigmatize the child during that time period.. Knowing full well how society would have lavle her regardless to the circumstances.. As wise as Ming Lan is how could she not see it from this point of view..

 

From reading other comments in this thread I also thought Aunt Kang came back to get revenge against ML and personally wanted to kill her herself.. This sounds like more of Auntie Kang character because she has to show ML you will never be above me I can kill you at anytime and no one would know thing about it or do anything about it.. 

 

5 hours ago, m0us3y said:

The slap SH gave ML, although hateful and unjustified, did drive home a point.

That ML will no longer bow down to the 'master of the household'. 

And SH realised that too. When she was willing to have the family disown her in exchange for justice for granny, and SH wanted to slap her again, she took a step forward rather than a step back...shows how determined and resolute she was to get to the bottom of the matter and seek justice. 

 

If my understanding is correct, SH seems to try avoiding the matter by going off to work, only to have ML told him that she has taken time off for him on behalf. 

Forced him to face the issue...

 

If only he could see beyond saving the family's face and understand how fiercely loyal and loving ML is towards the granny...he would be able to see how well she was raised even without him playing his role as a father. 

He should be proud that she's such a filial person...

@m0us3y  At this point of the game I think SH dispised ML just because she was smarter then the three girls not so much of a thought for Ronger but more so she achieved more success them Molan whom he thought the sun set and raise in.. SH always viewed Molan as his accomplishment only to have her and CL to disappoint him..  He has raised his hands to hit ML twice and succeeded once. Now regardless to whatever Molan did he never went that far even as she went on a b-ooty call in the temple and her on Mom spread the news to make him loose face and yet he overlook all things concerning her unless it's something she really wants for example having a small memorial set up for her.. 

Which brings me to the conclusion after learning about CL evilness of killing someone and not being able to bury her properly nor listing her in the Sheng Family Linenge he could be holding some kind of grudge against her for this.. I just don't think the man ever like Ml or her mom.. He has never cared for her if he did he wouldn't be so quick to raise his hands to hit her even while she's pregnant.. I think the Emperor should have heard of how such a scholar behaves all because he's scared to loose face and have fingers pointing at him.. SH always quick to throw ML status up in her face because her husband ranks higher then him in court and out.. Even Molan husband ranks higher then him and yet he don't put up airs to her.. I tell you if it wasn't for Granny Ming Lan would probably be married off to the poorest farmer in town.. All for the grater good of him saving face and she's married into a peaceful family.. I bet he wouldn't have married her to some outstanding scholar but then again he may have left her in the home just so she can serve them for feeling she's not worthy enough to have a husband.. At this point in the drana I must thank Granny because of not for her ML would have never been educated if it was left up to the people in that house.. SH seems the type that would have punish ML if he found out she knew how to read without permission..  (SH attitude changed towars ML after her mom died. It was like he never wnted to face this child this is why I think he would ahve sent her our of the hie early on)

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1 hour ago, ForgottenSoulx said:

Anyone got any good recap's for me of the last like 9 page's... 

 

Anything good happen. 

This was the best post of the page for me.:lol:

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2 hours ago, bulubulu said:

So in viki its takes only to ep 60 to catch up with the eps thats airing in china (tv version?) but the tv version is already at ep 66. Im quite confused, i saw people say viki is airing uncut, but does it still ends at ep 79?

I think it won't end at ep 79 for viki. Since ep 61 is equal to ep 65 tv series

I really really can't wait for tonight episodes.. i love it so much last night episodes.. i'm so curious to know ML conversations with empress.

It should have something to prevent empress' family downfall

Edited by tinast
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