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[Current Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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59 minutes ago, tomo74 said:

I think I should moved on from discussing QH, :dissapointed: it's very clear that people taking side, it sounds to me, when GTY acting cunning and manipulative to ML, people always find an excuse, but keep saying QH is bad, trashing ML reputation, like he do it in purpose, please look at the whole story and characters, I'm happy that some people already try to understand QH's character without squeeze him to death, once again, I'm not pro QH.

 

I don't think people are saying QH is bad, only that he isn't suitable for ML. In an ideal world, QH is the hero who gets the girl. He is pure, honest, kind, intelligent, and honourable - everything that a high-class educated man should be. But the world is not perfect and high-mindedness comes with a price. Ultimately, I think QH is a tragic character. He is in the show to prove the point that in order to survive in this kind of society, you MUST be manipulative. Simply being good and kind is not enough, and principles and ideals alone cannot ensure survival or a good outcome. QH tries and does everything in his power except break the rules in order to get ML. He is everything except ruthless, but it's his unwillingness to be ruthless that loses him everything in the end. His family is high-class in name only without real clout to back that power. When they face real power, they cave and QH is forced to marry. His family loses their standing because they are not good at playing the game. GTY and ML on the other hand do understand that ruthlessness because they have grown up in that environment. They understand that principles alone cannot ensure survival. In the end, ML loves QH because he represents idealism and goodness. It's what she wishes she could be if she had a choice. But GTY is ML's reality. He understands her hardship, her intelligence and resilience in the face of living in that kind of era and society. He is the only one who truly appreciates her manipulations for what they are - a way to survive. 

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6 minutes ago, Jiyin Tu said:

 

I don't think people are saying QH is bad, only that he isn't suitable for ML. In an ideal world, QH is the hero who gets the girl. He is pure, honest, kind, intelligent, and honourable - everything that a high-class educated man should be. But the world is not perfect and high-mindedness comes with a price. Ultimately, I think QH is a tragic character. He is in the show to prove the point that in order to survive in this kind of society, you MUST be manipulative. Simply being good and kind is not enough, and principles and ideals alone cannot ensure survival or a good outcome. QH tries and does everything in his power except break the rules in order to get ML. He is everything except ruthless, but it's his unwillingness to be ruthless that loses him everything in the end. His family is high-class in name only without real clout to back that power. When they face real power, they cave and QH is forced to marry. His family loses their standing because they are not good at playing the game. GTY and ML on the other hand do understand that ruthlessness because they have grown up in that environment. They understand that principles alone cannot ensure survival. In the end, ML loves QH because he represents idealism and goodness. It's what she wishes she could be if she had a choice. But GTY is ML's reality. He understands her hardship, her intelligence and resilience in the face of living in that kind of era and society. He is the only one who truly appreciates her manipulations for what they are - a way to survive. 

:thumbsup: you are one of the people who understand QH's character, if you read the previous comments, you'll get what I mean with my post.

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9 minutes ago, Jiyin Tu said:

 

I don't think people are saying QH is bad, only that he isn't suitable for ML. In an ideal world, QH is the hero who gets the girl. He is pure, honest, kind, intelligent, and honourable - everything that a high-class educated man should be. But the world is not perfect and high-mindedness comes with a price. Ultimately, I think QH is a tragic character. He is in the show to prove the point that in order to survive in this kind of society, you MUST be manipulative. Simply being good and kind is not enough, and principles and ideals alone cannot ensure survival or a good outcome. QH tries and does everything in his power except break the rules in order to get ML. He is everything except ruthless, but it's his unwillingness to be ruthless that loses him everything in the end. His family is high-class in name only without real clout to back that power. When they face real power, they cave and QH is forced to marry. His family loses their standing because they are not good at playing the game. GTY and ML on the other hand do understand that ruthlessness because they have grown up in that environment. They understand that principles alone cannot ensure survival. In the end, ML loves QH because he represents idealism and goodness. It's what she wishes she could be if she had a choice. But GTY is ML's reality. He understands her hardship, her intelligence and resilience in the face of living in that kind of era and society. He is the only one who truly appreciates her manipulations for what they are - a way to survive. 

Well said.

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GTY is cunning and manipulative, but he's honest to Minglan. He did what he did because he knows the straightforward way is not going to work. If Minglan herself is no longer have an issue with the way he operates, I don't see why we should argue about what he did is right or wrong.

 

It's not like people didn't rip GTY to shreds during the first 20 eps of this drama. But guess what, after he fell on his face, the guy moved on, learnt from his mistakes and got back on his feet taller than ever. I don't think anyone is trying to make excuses for GTY or criticized QH because we "picking sides". Some of us just honestly believe that GTY is more suitable for ML, that what he did was within reasons. Some of us, like Xiaotao, just honestly don't like how QH handled his relationship with ML, so we're just stating our opinions, I don't think any of us criticize QH just out of spite to his character. Everyone is entitled to their own feelings/opinions. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

 

 

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I agree. QH isn't a bad person. But his personality during ancient dynasty's/kingdom's is a huge weakness. Heck, it's even a weakness to some degree in different professions. GTY and ML are more on the same level both emotionally and intellectually. Not talking about feelings when i say emotionally but they have both suffered alot in their family so they have mutual understanding and trust.

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27 minutes ago, tomo74 said:

Now, talk about GTY, people say his best friend is CB, my question, why GTY have to mislead his bestie about marrying his sister, he can honestly say, "hey bro, I like your 6th sister and I plan to marry her, give me your blessing please", instead he just say (I don't know what his exact word, since I'm not up to that episode) I want to marry your sis (even though what he wants is ML), he should knows that his words will mislead CB and the whole Sheng family, lucky enough that RL doesn't like him, can you imagine what happen if RL likes him too, and they agree to let GTY marry RL, and then GTY will tell them, "um... actually I dont want RL, I want ML", if he is a gentlemen with good moral, he won't do that, how RL can live her life after that rejection, isn't he trashing RL reputation (purposely).

 

If GTY let CB in on his scheme, then he would have asked CB to lie to his family for him. Do you think that's the better option for CB? To help his friend, he would have to lie to his parents and grandmother?

 

About Rulan, GTY told Minglan that (1) he was happy that the scholar is in the picture, which means that he knew RL would never happened to like him too. (2) He had thoroughly investigated the scholar, only after he confirmed that the scholar was trustworthy, that he proceeded with his plan. If the scholar is a bad guy, then he would have chased the guy out of the capital for Rulan and Sheng family's sake. 

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GTY's brother said he had been promoted as general of Jin army.The drama is based during Song dynasty so why is it called Jin instead of Song army?

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5 minutes ago, Lunkera said:

I agree. QH isn't a bad person. But his personality during ancient dynasty's/kingdom's is a huge weakness. Heck, it's even a weakness to some degree in different professions. GTY and ML are more on the same level both emotionally and intellectually. Not talking about feelings when i say emotionally but they have both suffered alot in their family so they have mutual understanding and trust.

 

I actually think this is the most interesting part of the show, because QH is everything ancient China teaches a man should be! Loyal to his country, educated, moral etc. But it's all a lie! In order to survive, you can only ever have the appearance of these qualities. Truly living those principles can only lead to ruin. QH is outwitted and out-maneuvered by everyone around him - his mom, Yong family, GTY etc. And all because he tries to live by the principles he is taught his entire life - to be a good person. 

 

It's a really nice contrast against ML's female cousin in the countryside, who is everything that ancient China teaches a woman should be - kind, quiet, obedient, loving to the husband etc. And yet both characters end up in often brutal situations. 

 

It's a very philosophical lesson that being moral is in itself a privilege. The female cousin could live without manipulating all her life and become a "good" character because her family used money to buy her way through life. Every time her husband abused her, they just stuffed her husband with money. Similarly, QH grew up in a lap of luxury. He has always been a good, kind moral person because he's never been required to be anything else. A starving man doesn't care about doing the right thing when he cannot even fill his stomach. 

 

 

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@tomo74 Thanks for understanding my attempt in trying to point out things from QH’s point of view as well as GTY’s calculations toward QH. I just wanted non-native viewers to notice all the details and nuisances from conversations and expressions to get unbiased overall pictures of each character and events, respective of the era and irrespective of who are leads/ OTPs and who deserves female lead better. 

 

@Suzzy San So far, QH never said or shown that he is the only suitable high-class man for ML. He never disrespected ML for being shu born. He was totally against his parents’ idea of making ML his high concubine which is btw, very logical in the eyes of society in that era for ML being Shu daughter of 5th grade official and QH being son of a duke and 2nd grade princess. He never even said that GTY was not good enough for ML. He only said to Xiaotao that he wants ML to have a good life in the future which he is sincere (can see from his prayer before). We can only imply that he thinks that GTY was not good enough for ML due to his past behavior, reputations and incidents with Yu family (Manaing). You have to remember that GTY is a scoundrel in the view of aristocrats of the capital.  

 

I think you are getting order of events confused. GTY helped ML from drowning on the way to Sheng family ancestral  house in You Yan. That was right after QH’s mom non-proposal at ML’s house, QH followed ML along her trip to give ML the female doll and told ML that he would try again for his mom approval.

GTY joined the army stationed near You Yan (Sheng’s family hometown), basically he followed her there, and ended up helping ML again from bandits. He followed and protected ML and grandma in their trip back to the capital. If you watched GTY’s expression carefully, he has already shown feelings for ML and he created opportunities to be with her and have conversations with her (he could have taken her straight back to her group after he rescued her from bandits but took her to his camp outside the city). He even told his daughter to call ML aunt instead of sister. When ML is back to the capital, she heard about QH’s hunger strike with his mom to get her approval for their marriage. QH and ML then met alone last time at Gu family’s house and QH told ML that he would ask emperor’s benovelance for marriage decree. At that time, QH didn’t even know his family’s dilemma of getting marraige proposals from two powerful families, Long Fei Yan was raped and tortured by Yong Wang’s people because of him and the lives of ML and his family will be threatened by Yong Wang. 

 

I still do not agree that GTY’s plan in helping QH to go against Yong Wang would have worked at that time (of course, we say now that it would work because Yong Wang died and didn’t become emperor) and GTY was being sincere in helping him especially after he recently confessed to ML that he has set his mind in marrying her after he rescued her from drowning and she told him to plan for his life and his daughter’s future. I believed he offered help to QH knowing QH would not do anything reckless out of his principles and would not take risk in putting ML and his family in danger. He just wanted to make a point to QH that he doesn’t deserve ML for not fighting enough to get her (in GTY’s own perspective as he is someone who never adhered to society rules at that time). He tried to put a wedge between ML and QH by telling her QH not going to be able to go against his filial piety by referring him to emperor of Míng of Tang (this was before he offered his help to QH in going against Yong Wang).

 

Again, I’m not saying what GTY did was terrible. I’m just pointing out He did everything he could including calculating, scheming, tricking everyone including QH and changing others' lives in gaining ML’s hands and he is a very flawed character. Of course, I applaud him for achieving his goal and I agree that he is best choice for ML as both of them are against traditional point of view. However, we including GTY should not blame QH for not taking GTY’s help and advice to go against Yong Wang. 

From now, I’ll move on from trying to point out about situation and circumstances surrounding QH. Cheers! :D :D :D 

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15 minutes ago, minglan1 said:

GTY's brother said he had been promoted as general of Jin army.The drama is based during Song dynasty so why is it called Jin instead of Song army?

GTY is now general of army that protects the city. Juan Jin mentioned was not Jin army. It is the army that protects the capital city. 

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@Arieslazarel In my opinion, the way QH personality is because he is a favored di son from a rich and noble family. Unfavored di children and children born from concubine won't see it that way. Since they have to fight to survive. 

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I finally made an account! I stumbled upon this forum on pg 80 when I couldn't stand the suspense of waiting to know what is going on, especially after the boat raid episode. I'm passed the QY understanding point and moved on to the curious about GTY and if he's a good fit for ML. Both him and ML are very strategic and I'm so excited about seeing them work together. I think it would be cute to see them playing Go together as well. I'm currently in my second semester of Chinese and I realized that the language used in this drama is far more advanced than what I'm learning... nevertheless, I make sure that when I watch the raws that I cast to my TV and try to pay attention to the characters. What are the chances my character knowledge increases by the end of this show? I'm also open to recommendations of other Chinese dramas. Admittedly, I used to be k drama all the way till I decided to take Chinese...so I'm behind the curve. I look forward to stalking this forum and any spoilers/sneak peaks/raws that are shared. This has quickly become a passion of mine that I'm worried how I'll take it when the show is over. But for now, I'll live for the upcoming wedding and moments where ML shows how mighty she really is.


Side note: GTY seems very haughty in his laughing at most situations... I wonder if it's a defense mechanism.

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13 minutes ago, Lunkera said:

@Arieslazarel In my opinion, the way QH personality is because he is a favored di son from a rich and noble family. Unfavored di children and children born from concubine won't see it that way. Since they have to fight to survive. 

@Lunkera  I think it still depend on their circumstances in the rich and noble family. CB wasn't favored but he still wanted to protect  and be filial to his family. GTY had no one to depend on, he only had CB and hi Momo to find some kind of comfort.

GTY had no one to love him from his rich family. Everyone wanted to use his money but was conspiring against him to take his money. :bawling::bawling:

His own father hated him and wished ( this just my opinion)  he was never born. I believed his father's family plan was to marry GTY's mom and use her dowry. Once they fixed their financial issue they would have divorced her but once they found out he didn't consummate the marriage, they were blocked from any income. I think his family is who ruined his reputation. Usually they cover up their children's mistakes but his family publicize his mistakes. What can a child do than act out for some attention from the one person he wants it most. I pity himmmmmmmmmmmmm.  :bawling:

@historicalfictionftw     Welcome to thread

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7 minutes ago, minglan1 said:

GTY's brother said he had been promoted as general of Jin army.The drama is based during Song dynasty so why is it called Jin instead of Song army?

In ancient China, military forces were generally of two big groups. Jin Army and Regional Army. Jin Army is a special name for the army guarding the palace and the capital. Jin means forbidden, same character as in the Zi Jin Chen (the forbidden city). The head/general of Jin Army is always the most trusted subordinate of the emperor since his life will be all in his hands. The regional army posted at the border (sometimes it is also named as Bian Fang Army, the border defense army) and important militarial location. Unless under attack, they could only carry out military actions with the military Seal/token issued by the emperor. The Northern Song Dynasty owned the biggest Jin Army in the history by having nearly 800k soldiers. They were also in charge of the security of the direct neighbor regions around the capital. Hence GTY is an extremely powerful general under the new emperor. 

 

Actually in the novel, it is not specified that he became the head of Jin Army. It did mention he became a Rank #2 general. Rank #1 is like Duke level. Rank #2 is like Marquis level. Basically he made his status up to the level of what his ancestor did for the family all by himself. 

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3 hours ago, Renee Smit said:

Okay, could someone please point me in the direction of all the raw episodes?  If possible, links would be appreciated for episodes 39 and 40.  Thank you!

 Have just inbox you , enjoy :wub:

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2 minutes ago, nnnju said:

In ancient China, military forces were generally of two big groups. Jin Army and Regional Army. Jin Army is a special name for the army guarding the palace and the capital. Jin means forbidden, same character as in the Zi Jin Chen (the forbidden city). The head/general of Jin Army is always the most trusted subordinate of the emperor since his life will be all in his hands. The regional army posted at the border (sometimes it is also named as Bian Fang Army, the border defense army) and important militarial location. Unless under attack, they could only carry out military actions with the military Seal/token issued by the emperor. The Northern Song Dynasty owned the biggest Jin Army in the history by having nearly 800k soldiers. They were also in charge of the security of the direct neighbor regions around the capital. Hence GTY is an extremely powerful general under the new emperor. 

 

Actually in the novel, it is not specified that he became the head of Jin Army. It did mention he became a Rank #2 general. Rank #1 is like Duke level. Rank #2 is like Marquis level. Basically he made his status up to the level of what his ancestor did for the family all by himself. 

Thanks for the info @nnnju

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3 minutes ago, nnnju said:

In ancient China, military forces were generally of two big groups. Jin Army and Regional Army. Jin Army is a special name for the army guarding the palace and the capital. Jin means forbidden, same character as in the Zi Jin Chen (the forbidden city). The head/general of Jin Army is always the most trusted subordinate of the emperor since his life will be all in his hands. The regional army posted at the border (sometimes it is also named as Bian Fang Army, the border defense army) and important militarial location. Unless under attack, they could only carry out military actions with the military Seal/token issued by the emperor. The Northern Song Dynasty owned the biggest Jin Army in the history by having nearly 800k soldiers. They were also in charge of the security of the direct neighbor regions around the capital. Hence GTY is an extremely powerful general under the new emperor. 

 

Actually in the novel, it is not specified that he became the head of Jin Army. It did mention he became a Rank #2 general. Rank #1 is like Duke level. Rank #2 is like Marquis level. Basically he made his status up to the level of what his ancestor did for the family all by himself. 

Thanks for the information.I am learning a lot about ancient China.It is fascinating.

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45 minutes ago, gleek49 said:

 

If GTY let CB in on his scheme, then he would have asked CB to lie to his family for him. Do you think that's the better option for CB? To help his friend, he would have to lie to his parents and grandmother?

 

About Rulan, GTY told Minglan that (1) he was happy that the scholar is in the picture, which means that he knew RL would never happened to like him too. (2) He had thoroughly investigated the scholar, only after he confirmed that the scholar was trustworthy, that he proceeded with his plan. If the scholar is a bad guy, then he would have chased the guy out of the capital for Rulan and Sheng family's sake. 

So, it's ok for GTY to mislead his best friend?, it's ok to scheme the family?.

About GTY knowing RL has bf it doesn't mean she can not change her mind, he is not GOD who can read people's mind.

If this thing done by QH, I dont know what people going to say.

This is why I said, some people just biased, for certain character it's ok for doing bad thing and have an excuses.

I'm not against GTY, I just want people judge each character fairly.

 

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