[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否？知否？应是绿肥红瘦

[m0us3y]

2 hours ago, zenya22 said:

@m0us3y

 

It seems basing on this drama based on the Song Dynasty,  the role of women in society changed in the Song Dynasty as we see in the drama? 

 

Nice one @zenya22. I've suspected that the embroidery was from Tang Dynasty but you've confirmed that. So thanks! 

 

I've read before that of all dynasties in China, Tang was one of the more progressive and liberal. It was also known as the golden age of China. It was a time where women had more freedom and rights, and a time where different religions are practised and accepted in general, although Taoism was the official religion. 

It's also the Dynasty where literature and poets soar. A few of the most well known poets are from this time. 

 

However, in Song Dynasty, neo-Confucianism became a dominant belief, it has been argued that the rise of neo-Confucianism had also led to a decline of the status of women. From the Song dynasty onwards, restrictions on women became more pronounced. 

Chastity for women were placed of higher importance and the gap between male and female became more pronounced. 

As such, in that time, the status of women has actually moved backwards. This continues on until the Qing Dynasty. 

http://www.followcn.com/women/2018/06/18/status-of-women-in-song-dynasty/

 

As the show is set in Song Dynasty, which is the Dynasty right after Tang, I can see why they emphasize that it's not easy to be women in that time. Because they would have learned about Tang Dynasty days, but from Song Dynasty onwards, the gap between men and women just got bigger over time, and women lost more rights over time. 

[m0us3y]

1 hour ago, leeza77 said:

Yes and then the gifting ML with the male porcelain doll.. What's supppsed to mean.. As a token for ML to not forget him?? Luckily ML's insight was excellent. Better had a clean break, and return all the dolls to QH. 

My thoughts too. 

And that's why the more thoughts I put into it, the more I see QH as a wet blanket or pathetic if he really ended up pining for her his entire life. 

 

His arrogance and ignorance earlier is arguably due to his very privileged background and upbringing. 

But now, knowing he will marry another, what's the reason for him still approaching her and giving her the doll? 

 

Whether he was hoping for her to keep him in her heart forever with the dolls as reminder? Hoping for ML to accept to be his concubine because he loves her? Or hoping for ML to wait for him indefinitely? 

Either of the answers above seems really selfish to me. 

 

He cant get her. He's sad. Shouldn't be at least hope she can get her happiness elsewhere?

But it seems like he can't get her. He's sad. So she should be sad with him. 

Or perhaps he thinks only he is capable of giving her happiness? If so, that's arrogance at its worst....

 

I emphatise with his circumstances. I feel sorry for his situation. But I cannot, for the life of me understand his actions...not in the name of love. 

[linhlinh111]

5 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

Do you mean those viewers dropped because “ML was NOT GTY’s first and only”? You forgot to put “not”? 

 

Those viewers might be middle and high school teenagers without life experiences  who are naive like QH   expecting Cinderella story. 

 

In accordance with society that time, even QH should have at least 1-2 tongfan maid though novel did not mention. (QH was not mentioned much even as CB in the novel).   

 

I do not understand why Chinese drama viewers fair better with emperors having many wives and concubines but not with regular males having concubines. I get that even with emperors, some viewers still want loving only one girl though they might have many feis and sleeping with them as long as it is not shown on screen. 

 

I think in '09, FSF was in the drama "four women conflict" in which he has three wives (main wife and two concubines) as well as a woman he is flirting with. Ady An played third wife whom he actually fell in love and married in as concubine (ZLY also played a small character as  maid of first wife). I wonder how international audience and younger viewers respond that drama back then. (I haven't really watched it as it seems super tragic and cliche being Yuzheng’s writing. Only read review and seen clips on youtube). 

 

 

Yes men in that period could have many women even before marriage, but you can see from the drama that none of them had illegitimate children  before getting married, to be exact none of them had eldest children born from a concubine. That was considered shameful and will lessen his marriage potential to a woman with status. Moreover when GTY was looking for a wife earlier in the drama, his goal was to find someone who would treat his concubine right. He had no rights to ask such a thing from his main wife and her family. He was selfish, disrespect, ignorant and shameless. That was no action coming from a gentlemen with dignity, nor it was fit for someone of his education background and his status of aristocracy. The fact that that girl was not the main lead didn't stop me from feeling angry for her. He left a very bad first impression so no wonder he is being criticized by viewers.

[m0us3y]

@ForgottenSoulx I like feisty females too. Can't say the same about arrogant males.  

Lol. Which is why I liked QH earlier, he's such a gentleman! Although I disagree with his actions, I can understand them (due to his background). 

But now that I've got some opportunity to look back and reflect on the earlier and recent episodes, there's a bit of underlying arrogance. Indirectly. And I can't say I like what I'm seeing. 

[chistarr]

3 hours ago, zenya22 said:

@m0us3yI was just searching online about the Tang Dynasty, the one that preceded, the Song Dynasty, the dynasty where the picture of the princess embroidered by ML's mom and given to GTY, the princess general. http://www.womenofchina.cn/womenofchina/html1/people/history/7/7448-1.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Zetian#Early_reign

 

Some excerpts: "Tang women had the chance to learn history, politics, and military skills.  At the founding of this dynasty, Women of the royal family were not subject to marital restrictions or constraints either. From the reign of Emperor Gaozong to that of Emperor Suzong during the early and middle Tang Dynasty, there were altogether 98 princesses, of which 61 married, among whom 24 remarried, and four married three times. This trend shook the very foundations of traditional feudal ethics. Living within a relaxed social environment, and having an independent social status, the behavior of well-educated Tang women was obviously quite different from that of the women of former dynasties. They could drink wine to the limit of their capacity, and sing loudly in taverns; gallop through the suburbs with abandon; or even compete with men on the polo field. In the Tang Dynasty, women conducted social activities and carried on business independently. They even distinguished themselves within the political and military arena."

 

"The ultimate Tang Dynasty woman was undoubtedly Wu Zetian. There were altogether 243 emperors during the 2,000 years from the beginning of the Qin Dynasty (221 BC) to the end of the Qing Dynasty (1911), and Wu Zetian was the only female monarch among them. Wu Zetian was the most legendary and controversial figure in Chinese history. She lived to be 82, and held power for 50 years.

During Wu Zetian's reign, the achievements of her predecessors were carried forward and further developed, eventually bringing the Tang Dynasty to the peak of its Kaiyuan splendor. Within the Tang Dynasty's centuries-long prosperity, 50 years can be accredited to Wu Zetian. It was the Tang Dynasty that created Empress Wu Zetian, and this indomitable woman reciprocated by devoting her life and energies to her people."

 

It seems basing on this drama based on the Song Dynasty,  the role of women in society changed in the Song Dynasty as we see in the drama? 

 

 

Yes. From what I have read up (about women's freedom in the Tang Dynasty) it appears that in the dynasty following right after, there was almost a kind of reining in of women; they were seen to have had too much freedom and were going against Confucian law so society began to repress them again. It is quite sad because in all Chinese history, it seems, the women of the Tang Dynasty had it the best. It was a good time to be a woman, if ever in ancient China. 

 

Edit: I just caught up to everyone else's response and see that you already got your answer

[Jackie1048]

I am glad the drama moved on from Qi Heng and Ming Lan's idealistic romance. Ming Lan's grandmother warned her of falling into romance novel fantasy as she knew that Qi Heng will never be able to defy his mother.

 

Both Qi Heng and Ming Lan made a decision to call it quits and I am looking forward to seeing how Gu Ting Ye is going to charm Ming Lan to be his wife.

 

As Ming Lan explained that Brother He who grew up without a father but under a very strong willed grandmother understand the restriction women likewise Gu Ting Ye also understand a woman standing in their society. Gu Ting Ye has set his own household already so Ming Lan is free to run his household without any restriction as there isn't any in-laws in the picture.

 

On the Tang dynasty Emperor and Yang Guifei, it depicts like that Tang Emperor Qi Heng will be unable to protect Ming Lan as Yang Guifei became the scapegoat for his failure and she had to commit suicide.

 

I believe Ming Lan next concentration is her revenge on Concubine Lin as the physician explained that her mother need not die at all. Ming Lan's mother could have delivered her son safely if it wasn't for Concubine Lin's evil plan.

[fra8]

I don’t think the point of the show is to say gty is the best guy or even a better guy than qh. But gty  is because of many fsctors including his personality and experience the better guy for ml. And that is what really matters.

gty is a flawed character, in the book ml is a flawed character (here she is not until now) but they worked in the end.

I also think the show makes gty better but it does this even with qh. In the book qh is not really important. I would say they are changing a little the characterization of ml, gty and qh. But I like this more 

ps I agree feisty heroines/rich guys are the best.

[cherubstomato]

at episode 23, I know I’m far behind lol but who is that General, GTY is following? 

[minoku2209]

Article :The Story Of Minglan Director Talks About Finding The Perfect Cast 

 

[dancingbee]

55 minutes ago, Jackie1048 said:

On the Tang dynasty Emperor and Yang Guifei, it depicts like that Tang Emperor Qi Heng will be unable to protect Ming Lan as Yang Guifei became the scapegoat for his failure and she had to commit suicide.

 

Hi @Jackie1048
Sorry to cut your post. I was just wondering what you meant by this paragraph above.
Is Qi Heng going to become the next emperor? Why does Ming Lang need his protection? 
What about Yang Guifei's committing suicide?

Is this the story related to this drama?

[m0us3y]

8 minutes ago, dancingbee said:

Hi @Jackie1048
Sorry to cut your post. I was just wondering what you meant by this paragraph above.
Is Qi Heng going to become the next emperor? Why does Ming Lang need his protection? 
What about Yang Guifei's committing suicide?

Is this the story related to this drama?

There's a scene where ML and GTY spoke, which compares the relationship of QH/ML with that of Emperor Tang/Yang Gui Fei. 

And ML acknowledged she was being stupid. I guess she acknowledged that the QH and her was never meant to be. 

It's in episode 28. 

[zenya22]

49 minutes ago, Jackie1048 said:

On the Tang dynasty Emperor and Yang Guifei, it depicts like that Tang Emperor Qi Heng will be unable to protect Ming Lan as Yang Guifei became the scapegoat for his failure and she had to commit suicide.

 

I believe Ming Lan next concentration is her revenge on Concubine Lin as the physician explained that her mother need not die at all. Ming Lan's mother could have delivered her son safely if it wasn't for Concubine Lin's evil plan.

@Jackie1048sorry to cut your post. I am glad too that the show is moving on from Ming Lan/Yuan Ruo young idealistic romance. So, that was what Ting Ye was warning Ming Lan about when he told her about Emperor and Yang Guifei and she answered that QHY was not the emperor and has no empire to protect. Eye rolls... but only begin to realize after learning that people died and more could and she will get abandoned. 

And yes, GTY is his own man and set up his own household with only Rong er and Momo. ML will be the queen of the household. His brother will be sorry he did not give him the spear. I can't wait for him to take back what was taken from him.

 

I am worried about what concubine Lin would do to either grandma or Ming Lan. I hope she and her aunt have a solid plan. Concubine Lin has her loyal maid spying on them. 

[ForgottenSoulx]

5 hours ago, zenya22 said:

@m0us3y

 

 

Looks like this was a peak Dynasty for Women there is Princess Pingyang of Tang dynasty as well i think that is the general you are on about ;p

 

4 hours ago, m0us3y said:

That's exactly what I meant. He doesn't let himself go, and he doesn't let her go. In a way, it's a guilt trip. That a man of his status would "do" so much for her. Although everything he does, she doesn't actually benefit. If anything, he's only hurting her by promising something he cant deliver. But it's enough to tie her down and make her feel like she should reciprocate. 

This, in my view, isn't love. 

 

Its love just selfish love.

 

4 hours ago, crackaddict said:

On the topic of disappointing men, was anyone else upset with ML's father and his refusal at her requests on behalf of her dead mother? 

 

What a richard simmons... hope he gets his comeuppance. 

 

4 hours ago, minglan1 said:

@crackaddict I didn't like how Shen Hong wanted to brush aside the possibility of foul play in ML mom's demise.He is a shrewd guy and I feel he has guessed in part that the inner court ladies had not played fair in the circumstances leading to her death.At this point he is too worried of not getting his household involved in a scandal.

He comes across as a very selfish man.

 

Hated him for a while hes selfish and a weak man who does not really care for his family.

 

3 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

I understand what im saying and its not 21st century thinking if anything that is your views , you cant simply say oh this is the general consensus of women right's so thats that.

 

In those times there were plenty of out liars you dont really know what went on in these household's. I know plenty about Chinese culture and history.

 

All households and family's were different back then its not so hard to believe that in some houses they respected women more or that a concubine daughter took over as a steward for a short amount of time. 

 

Sure right's vary from Dynasty but they vary from household as well, you seem to know alot about history but every household back then was full of politics its not hard to believe that they had someone irrelevant power wise but clever take over the steward position for a while. 

 

2 hours ago, linhlinh111 said:

Yes men in that period could have many women even before marriage, but you can see from the drama that none of them had illegitimate children  before getting married, to be exact none of them had eldest children born from a concubine. That was considered shameful and will lessen his marriage potential to a woman with status. Moreover when GTY was looking for a wife earlier in the drama, his goal was to find someone who would treat his concubine right. He had no rights to ask such a thing from his main wife and her family. He was selfish, disrespect, ignorant and shameless. That was no action coming from a gentlemen with dignity, nor it was fit for someone of his education background and his status of aristocracy. The fact that that girl was not the main lead didn't stop me from feeling angry for her. He left a very bad first impression so no wonder he is being criticized by viewers.

 

I dont think hes selfish,disrespectful , ignorant or shameless for wanting to find a wife who accept's his concubine/children hes selfish for not saying it before the marriage but i dont think his actions in general around the situation deserve that much disgust.. 

 

2 hours ago, m0us3y said:

@ForgottenSoulx I like feisty females too. Can't say the same about arrogant males.  

Lol. Which is why I liked QH earlier, he's such a gentleman! Although I disagree with his actions, I can understand them (due to his background). 

But now that I've got some opportunity to look back and reflect on the earlier and recent episodes, there's a bit of underlying arrogance. Indirectly. And I can't say I like what I'm seeing. 

 

You need the arrogant males and feisty females for hilarious moment's , i also liked QH but i sort of dread his scene's now. 

 

1 hour ago, fra8 said:

I don’t think the point of the show is to say gty is the best guy or even a better guy than qh. But gty  is because of many fsctors including his personality and experience the better guy for ml. And that is what really matters.

gty is a flawed character, in the book ml is a flawed character (here she is not until now) but they worked in the end.

I also think the show makes gty better but it does this even with qh. In the book qh is not really important. I would say they are changing a little the characterization of ml, gty and qh. But I like this more 

ps I agree feisty heroines/rich guys are the best.

 

Totally agree its multiple factors and fate as why GTY is the best fit for ML.

 

 

[m0us3y]

Spoiler

24 minutes ago, minoku2209 said:

Article :The Story Of Minglan Director Talks About Finding The Perfect Cast 

 

 

Thanks for the news @minoku2209. 

That's how I felt initially about the show too. 

First 10 episodes seem a bit slower, but looking back, it seems like it's just setting up the each character nicely. And everything makes more sense! 

[zenya22]

1 hour ago, fra8 said:

I don’t think the point of the show is to say gty is the best guy or even a better guy than qh. But gty  is because of many fsctors including his personality and experience the better guy for ml. And that is what really matters.

gty is a flawed character, in the book ml is a flawed character (here she is not until now) but they worked in the end.

I also think the show makes gty better but it does this even with qh. In the book qh is not really important. I would say they are changing a little the characterization of ml, gty and qh. But I like this more 

ps I agree feisty heroines/rich guys are the best.

Thank you,

[leeza77]

Spoiler

I read that the wedding will be next week.. Can't wait. ML's character will be more feisty and cunning after marriage. Blooming to her true self

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[Golden Flower]

On 1/10/2019 at 5:20 AM, linhlinh111 said:

I want to explain to you why the fact that GTY already had an eldest son is looking so bad for him. During this time period, normally the family's title and assets would go to the legitimate son. However the eldest son also held certain influence in the household bc he had a few years' advantage and the title 'big brother' (which means he was to be respected by his younger brothers). If the illegitimate eldest son turned out to be a capable man, climbed up in the social ladder he may use his connections and his title as the eldest son to fight for the family title and fortune. That's why in families with status, a concubine would not be allowed to have children before the main wife had produced an heir, or only if the main wife couldn't produce an heir after a few years of marriage. If a man accidentally got his maid pregnant before he got married, the maid would be forced to have an abortion. That's why in the Sheng family, although ML's father favoured Lin concubine, both of his eldest son and daughter were from his main wife. That can also explain why Manniang took the son not the daughter, bc the son was much more important. A man who already had an eldest son would not be able to marry a lady from the same status, since her family would not agree to take that risk. He would have to marry someone from a lower status.

 

It's lucky for GTY later he turned out to become the new Emperor's favourite, or else there's no way his scheme would work.

 

Thanks for taking time explaining. I just want to clarify that there are three types of sons main wife born di, concubine born shu and illegitimate sons who were born of outside women and did not get recorded in family ancestry book. Shu sons are considered legitimate. In Song Dynasty, shu son, however, has right to equally divide family assests with di sons though they do not have right to inherit the nobility title (ref: Concubines in Song China, women and the family in history of China). The illegitimate sons will not have right to any family assests and their names won't be registered into ancestry book.  

The main wife and parents have to approve the concubine to be married into the family. The outside women are those with very low status like prostitutes and entertainers from brothels (even if they do not sell their bodies) that main wife and parents do not agree to welcome her into the family. I think a guy can have concubines in addition to tong-fan maids before marrying legal wife. In the case of GTY’s family, their standard is high as they won’t accept MN because she is singer even though she is not from brothel. 

 

In GTY’s case, he is having issue to find a wife because he only wants to marry di daughter. He already said that it would be easy for him to marry ML who is a shu born when they were fighting in desert shop. Although it did not happen in drama, he was able to marry Yu Yan Hong, di daughter and younger half-sister of Yanran  in the book even though Yanran parents know that he has two kids with outside women. Unlike in drama, MN took both kids with her when she went to Yu house. He could not marry Yanran only because she was raised by her grandparents and they want her to have peaceful marriage life and they thought that he having two kids with a woman like MN will be miserable life for Yanran who is too soft. I do not remember what happened to accepting MN as concubine after he got married to YH. I think at that point he already found out MN’s nature and decided not to bring her in. He had to scheme to marry ML is because of her grandmom not because of SH and WS. SH and WS already agreed Rulan di daughter to marry him after he became general. 

 

Spoiler

 In the book, Liang Liu's concubine, shu sister of the wife of one of his shu older brother, was already pregnant and that was one of the reasons Liang Mama was fine with her son marrying ML and another reason is she thinks that ML is prettier and have ability to manage scheming concubine of her son. 

 

[ForgottenSoulx]

Im at the point where im starting to dislike QH.. i feel so bad for him but like i want ML and GTY romance to begin already i hate that everytime it goes to QH its something depressing. 

[Lunkera]

@leeza77 Will that be possible though?. GTY still need to rise in position and aid in the ascension of the new emperor. Seems kinda too short of a timeframe unless it will start in the next 2 episodes. I think the week after is more plausible, althought it might happen at the end of next week.

[leeza77]

Just read on weibo.. Dunno w

20 minutes ago, Lunkera said:

@leeza77 Will that be possible though?. GTY still need to rise in position and aid in the ascension of the new emperor. Seems kinda too short of a timeframe unless it will start in the next 2 episodes. I think the week after is more plausible, althought it might happen at the end of next week.

Read on weibo.. Dunno whether it's true or not. They said on thursday next week. So, around 9 episodes more. I think it's plausible..