[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否？知否？应是绿肥红瘦

[hello210]

1 hour ago, ForgottenSoulx said:

 

I like the stories of like rich guys and feisty female's, This is one of my favourites. 

 

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Haha...I liked that one for a RomCom drama. It’s Marriage, Not Dating right? I looked it up and watched it after watching the male lead in Queen for Seven Days.

[m0us3y]

@hello210 I think the reason a lot of viewers find it unacceptable is because they view it with a 21st century lense. Where women are more of an equal to men than it has ever been. 

So the inequality and discrimination against the women becomes hard to watch, and sometimes hard to fathom. 

[hello210]

1 minute ago, m0us3y said:

@hello210 I think the reason a lot of viewers find it unacceptable is because they view it with a 21st century lense. Where women are more of an equal to men than it has ever been. 

So the inequality and discrimination against the women becomes hard to watch, and sometimes hard to fathom. 

@m0us3y yeah, I noticed that from some of the timed comments on Viki. 

[m0us3y]

1 hour ago, linhlinh111 said:

 

Yeah I don't like the cocky rich guy type either. I prefer the gentle passionate type. Maybe that's why I like QH (Also bc ZYL is super handsome) but his mother is a total let down. I wouldn't marry him either.

 

Anyway QH's life was not that bad. He succeeded in his career, had 2 sons and a few grandchildren. He was just lonely and loveless that's all. You don't die bc of that, people die for much worse reasons. There's no honor in dying just bc you don't get the girl. He was the only son, he had a whole family to take care of so despite how unhappy he was, he just gotta man up and take the responsibility he had to take. It's sad but in that time period that was how it was. If he had died just bc he couldn't be with ML then I would despise him very much.

Lol. If that's his ending, I unfortunately do not feel very sorry for him. And I also don't see how he should choose to die. 

 

If we go back to the time, how many marry out of love? Males mainly marry to consolidate power, concubines for love/ lust. Females are even worse off, they don't even get to choose their partner. Using that theory, everyone ought to die. 

But yet everyone seem to just accept and move on. That marriage is a trade. And then love comes later. You learn to love the person you share the bed with, the person you married. 

And you learn to live with that person until the end. With love. With tolerance. 

 

I guess they are trying to show QH as loyal lover, but he appears to a lot of viewers as wet blanket, and a lil pathetic. 

 

I didn't like it that he kept going to ML despite her telling him off multiple times. But I understand. His naive nature. His sheltered life. But when reality strikes, and he gets his rude awakening, why still pine for it, and worse, remain lonely and loveless. 

 

Firstly, I don't necessarily understand his undying love. They have never been through anything together, no life-death situation, and because of the times they were in, she hardly even spoke to him! He likes her, I get. Him continuing down that path even with all the facts in front of him, not so much. 

Does he really love her? Or is he simply pining for something he couldn't get?? He has always live in this idealistic bubble, and is it a case of him having a perfect image of her, something he conjured up in his mind rather than the real ML? 

 

Secondly, what is he trying to achieve with it all? If he truly believe he has no choice and his hands are tied, then let her go. Set her free. 

He passed both the figurines to her, what does he want out of that?

His actions are not only causing suffering to himself, but also to ML. 

In here, ML decided finally to let go and return both the figurines. Kudos to her. 

But for a girl a lil less intelligent, is he hoping that she will then wait, unconditionally, for him??

And if I recall from a spoiler from the book, is that ML till the end felt sorry to him, because he wanted her his whole life. 

In the drama, it's worse because she does love him back. Is he hoping that she too will forever have a place for him in her heart? And not move on? So they can be both be miserable? 

If so, I don't see how he loved her...

 

I truly feel that he loves her (for now). But if it's not meant to be and he knows it, wouldn't it be better than he let her go, set himself free, and at the same time, set her free? Because isn't loving someone means hoping for the person to be happy?

 

[leeza77]

8 minutes ago, m0us3y said:

Lol. If that's his ending, I unfortunately do not feel very sorry for him. And I also don't see how he should choose to die. 

 

If we go back to the time, how many marry out of love? Males mainly marry to consolidate power, concubines for love/ lust. Females are even worse off, they don't even get to choose their partner. Using that theory, everyone ought to die. 

But yet everyone seem to just accept and move on. That marriage is a trade. And then love comes later. You learn to love the person you share the bed with, the person you married. 

And you learn to live with that person until the end. With love. With tolerance. 

 

I guess they are trying to show QH as loyal lover, but he appears to a lot of viewers as wet blanket, and a lil pathetic. 

 

I didn't like it that he kept going to ML despite her telling him off multiple times. But I understand. His naive nature. His sheltered life. But when reality strikes, and he gets his rude awakening, why still pine for it, and worse, remain lonely and loveless. 

 

Firstly, I don't necessarily understand his undying love. They have never been through anything together, no life-death situation, and because of the times they were in, she hardly even spoke to him! He likes her, I get. Him continuing down that path even with all the facts in front of him, not so much. 

Does he really love her? Or is he simply pining for something he couldn't get?? He has always live in this idealistic bubble, and is it a case of him having a perfect image of her, something he conjured up in his mind rather than the real ML? 

 

Secondly, what is he trying to achieve with it all? If he truly believe he has no choice and his hands are tied, then let her go. Set her free. 

He passed both the figurines to her, what does he want out of that?

His actions are not only causing suffering to himself, but also to ML. 

In here, ML decided finally to let go and return both the figurines. Kudos to her. 

But for a girl a lil less intelligent, is he hoping that she will then wait, unconditionally, for him??

And if I recall from a spoiler from the book, is that ML till the end felt sorry to him, because he wanted her his whole life. 

In the drama, it's worse because she does love him back. Is he hoping that she too will forever have a place for him in her heart? And not move on? So they can be both be miserable? 

If so, I don't see how he loved her...

 

I truly feel that he loves her (for now). But if it's not meant to be and he knows it, wouldn't it be better than he let her go, set himself free, and at the same time, set her free? Because isn't loving someone means hoping for the person to be happy?

 

From ML's conversation with grandma, it seemed that ML has to accept and agreed to the insistence of QH to married her, when she knew about QH hunger strikes and his quarrel with his mother. She felt disloyal if she rejected him despite QH's efforts to marry her. 

Really dislike the way qh cried and cried for his failure. Should man up and accept his responsibility and make the best of the situation. 

[tomo74]

The people who dropped this drama just because ML is not GTY's first, possibly ZLY's fans and the people who dropped this drama IF QH become ML's hubby (not GTY), possible FSF's fans, if you get what I mean    peace guys

[zenya22]

I thought ep 29 though unsubbed was funny, comic relief, a breather 

 

If we were to look at who the "lead" is, based on who gets the girl by who does the most to get the girl  and graph them by numerical order through EFFORT, not quality or character this would be mine 

1. QHY

2. Mama Liang 

3. GTY

4. Dr He (bodhisattva) enlightened saint

(disclaimer: this list is temporary and not binding and it is changeable by anyone according to their POV in other words don't sue me)

 

mama Liang? talk about determination, could go neck and neck with QHY in effort, and her greatest obstacle will be future daughter in law Molan...who could win the bride prize of the future earl 

GTY 3rd? had many issues and busy putting his house in order but what puts him in 3rd place effortwise, was his selfless effort to help ML many years ago and makes him worthy in my eyes. Presently, effortwise, Mama Liang beats him. . 

 

Presently, the playing field for ML's hand is levelled and constantly changing and circumstances in all areas in the Song Dynasty will determine who gets the girl. 

 

Trivia and question about ML's granny: when ML and Granny went to visit the sister in law, the Sheng granny, (the one who died), during the family conversation one of the aunts praised ML as well mannered befitting of a grandaughter raised by the only daughter of Marquess Yong Yi referring to ML's granny. Therefore grandma is descended from a marquess which is a title below a duke. So grandma's blood family carries weight. The Sheng family are wealthy, don't seem to carry any title but were imperial officials. Sheng Hong was a magistrate then moved to the capital and became a minister. The drama does not state the circumstances of why ML's grandma married below her title. That is probably why QHY emphasized to his mother that ML, even if she was the daughter of a concubine was raised by her grandmother, implying that she was raised as a daughter of nobility because her grandmother is descended from a marquess? If QHY did know about granny's patriarchal title, that means he did do his homework. That was not enough for his mother. Also, the prince who is vying for the heir to the throne supported by QHY family is Yong Yan. I wonder if that has any relation ot granny's dad Marquess Yong Yi. Do the older generation then remember granny's family?

 

 

[mundane9]

1 hour ago, hello210 said:

it’s normal for men in that time period to have multiple bed partners before and after marriage.

that tradition has not changed to this day..... lot of asian men go around sowing oats before and during marriage to this day. scandals abound everywhere especially those with looks, power or money. Comes with the territory unfortunately. Westernization has not done much to change such cultural values unfortunately..... The main difference is that now, affairs are mostly hidden whereas in the old days, it was publicly accepted.

[tomo74]

12 minutes ago, zenya22 said:

1. QHY

2. Mama Liang 

Hhmm..... wonder which situation is better?  loved by husband but not mother in law or loved by mother in law but not husband?

[ForgottenSoulx]

1 hour ago, hello210 said:

Haha...I liked that one for a RomCom drama. It’s Marriage, Not Dating right? I looked it up and watched it after watching the male lead in Queen for Seven Days.

 

Yeah its one of my fave Korean drama's also the masters sun , Secret love all have the rich guy whose arrogant etc.. but still love these.

 

1 hour ago, m0us3y said:

@hello210 I think the reason a lot of viewers find it unacceptable is because they view it with a 21st century lense. Where women are more of an equal to men than it has ever been. 

So the inequality and discrimination against the women becomes hard to watch, and sometimes hard to fathom. 

 

Do these people never watch Harem drama's like Empresses in palace,yanxi etc..

 

42 minutes ago, m0us3y said:

 

Sorry for deleting your comment but just want to reply to a little bit.

 

That person is sugar coating what QH goes through to a hard degree lets see what happens to him but from spoilers here about QH he suffer's hard.

 

Its first love and true love on the side of QH he will never be happy throughout his life.

 

26 minutes ago, tomo74 said:

The people who dropped this drama just because ML is not GTY's first, possibly ZLY's fans and the people who dropped this drama IF QH become ML's hubby (not GTY), possible FSF's fans, if you get what I mean    peace guys

 

I agree lmfao.

 

 

20 minutes ago, zenya22 said:

 

 

 

GTY saved ML like 3 times that is more effort then anyone ;p 

 

Also i think Grandma married down because that's how it was for female's then or did they marry up i cant remember, maybe she was in love so married down. 

 

5 minutes ago, tomo74 said:

Hhmm..... wonder which situation is better?  loved by husband but not mother in law or loved by mother in law but not husband?

 

In terms of survival it would be the second unless the husband had alot of power in the household then it would be the 1st.

[gleek49]

53 minutes ago, zenya22 said:

I thought ep 29 though unsubbed was funny, comic relief, a breather 

 

If we were to look at who the "lead" is, based on who gets the girl by who does the most to get the girl  and graph them by numerical order through EFFORT,  this would be mine 

1. QHY

2. Mama Liang 

3. GTY

4. Dr He (bodhisattva) enlightened saint

(disclaimer: this list is temporary and not binding and it is changeable by anyone according to their POV in other words don't sue me)

 

mama Liang? talk about determination, could go neck and neck with QHY in effort, and her greatest obstacle will be future daughter in law Molan...who could win the bride prize of the future earl 

GTY 3rd? had many issues and busy putting his house in order but what puts him in 3rd place effortwise, was his selfless effort to help ML many years ago. Presently, effortwise, Mama Liang beats him. . 

 

Presently, the playing field for ML's hand is levelled and constantly changing and circumstances in all areas in the Song Dynasty will determine who gets the girl. 

 

Trivia and question about ML's granny: when ML and Granny went to visit the sister in law, the Sheng granny, (the one who died), during the family conversation one of the aunts praised ML as well mannered befitting of a grandaughter raised by the only daughter of Marquess Yong Yi referring to ML's granny. Therefore grandma is descended from a marquess which is a title below a duke. So grandma's blood family carries weight. The Sheng family are wealthy, don't seem to carry any title but were imperial officials. Sheng Hong was a magistrate then moved to the capital and became a minister. The drama does not state the circumstances of why ML's grandma married below her title. That is probably why QHY emphasized to his mother that ML, even if she was the daughter of a concubine was raised by her grandmother, implying that she was raised as a daughter of nobility because her grandmother is descended from a marquess? If QHY did know about granny's patriarchal title, that means he did do his homework. That was not enough for his mother. Also, the prince who is vying for the heir to the throne supported by QHY family is Yong Yan. I wonder if that has any relation ot granny's dad Marquess Yong Yi. Do the older generation then remember granny's family?

 

 

 

To answer your question about Sheng Grandma: 

 

- Yes, she came from a prestigious background. It hasn't been explained in the drama, but in the book it stated that she married Sheng Hong's father for love. She has cut all ties with her family (I don't remember the exact reason, but I believe it was because she went against her parents' disapproval). So her background only serves as an indication of her virtue and education. Together with the fact that Yong Yi Marquis manor has fallen far from grace after she left, I doubt that the title from ML's grandmother would provide any concrete benefit for her future in-law. 

- I think Sheng grandma's background is well-known among the inner circle.

- The "Yong" in Yong Yi Marquis and "Yong" in Yong Wang are two entirely different characters. They have nothing to do with each other.

[zenya22]

2 hours ago, m0us3y said:

I think the reason a lot of viewers find it unacceptable is because they view it with a 21st century lense. Where women are more of an equal to men than it has ever been. 

So the inequality and discrimination against the women becomes hard to watch, and sometimes hard to fathom. 

@m0us3yI was just searching online about the Tang Dynasty, the one that preceded, the Song Dynasty, the dynasty where the picture of the princess embroidered by ML's mom and given to GTY, the princess general. http://www.womenofchina.cn/womenofchina/html1/people/history/7/7448-1.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Zetian#Early_reign

 

Some excerpts: "Tang women had the chance to learn history, politics, and military skills.  At the founding of this dynasty, Women of the royal family were not subject to marital restrictions or constraints either. From the reign of Emperor Gaozong to that of Emperor Suzong during the early and middle Tang Dynasty, there were altogether 98 princesses, of which 61 married, among whom 24 remarried, and four married three times. This trend shook the very foundations of traditional feudal ethics. Living within a relaxed social environment, and having an independent social status, the behavior of well-educated Tang women was obviously quite different from that of the women of former dynasties. They could drink wine to the limit of their capacity, and sing loudly in taverns; gallop through the suburbs with abandon; or even compete with men on the polo field. In the Tang Dynasty, women conducted social activities and carried on business independently. They even distinguished themselves within the political and military arena."

 

"The ultimate Tang Dynasty woman was undoubtedly Wu Zetian. There were altogether 243 emperors during the 2,000 years from the beginning of the Qin Dynasty (221 BC) to the end of the Qing Dynasty (1911), and Wu Zetian was the only female monarch among them. Wu Zetian was the most legendary and controversial figure in Chinese history. She lived to be 82, and held power for 50 years.

During Wu Zetian's reign, the achievements of her predecessors were carried forward and further developed, eventually bringing the Tang Dynasty to the peak of its Kaiyuan splendor. Within the Tang Dynasty's centuries-long prosperity, 50 years can be accredited to Wu Zetian. It was the Tang Dynasty that created Empress Wu Zetian, and this indomitable woman reciprocated by devoting her life and energies to her people."

 

It seems basing on this drama based on the Song Dynasty,  the role of women in society changed in the Song Dynasty as we see in the drama? 

 

 

[zenya22]

1 hour ago, tomo74 said:

Hhmm..... wonder which situation is better?  loved by husband but not mother in law or loved by mother in law but not husband?

@tomo74in those days when mother in law lives in the wife's house, neither. That is only my grade for effort, but not the quality.

[heatherbee]

1 hour ago, ForgottenSoulx said:

 

Anyone whose watched any Harem drama can accept this GTY situation very easily, back then literally all male's had many wife's unless you were hidden gay ;p

As for me; this is the first time Im watching a male lead with this kind of situation;the reason I accepted gty easily bcoz I have already prepared myself long time ago when this show hvnt aired yet...through reading some infos abwt gty's character over the net..now,cnt w8t for what more he can to us,and I love how caring and sweet he is to his daughter... cant w8t for them w/t minglan te be a family soon.

[zenya22]

3 hours ago, ForgottenSoulx said:

3 hours ago, zenya22 said:

 

 

 

GTY saved ML like 3 times that is more effort then anyone ;p 

 

Also i think Grandma married down because that's how it was for female's then or did they marry up i cant remember, maybe she was in love so married down. 

@ForgottenSoulxI meant effort in wanting, chasing.... and trying to get . I actually meant it to be facetious 

 

You are right, @gleek49  said in book she married for love and defied her family. 

[m0us3y]

1 hour ago, leeza77 said:

From ML's conversation with grandma, it seemed that ML has to accept and agreed to the insistence of QH to married her, when she knew about QH hunger strikes and his quarrel with his mother. She felt disloyal if she rejected him despite QH's efforts to marry her. 

Really dislike the way qh cried and cried for his failure. Should man up and accept his responsibility and make the best of the situation. 

That's exactly what I meant. He doesn't let himself go, and he doesn't let her go. In a way, it's a guilt trip. That a man of his status would "do" so much for her. Although everything he does, she doesn't actually benefit. If anything, he's only hurting her by promising something he cant deliver. But it's enough to tie her down and make her feel like she should reciprocate. 

This, in my view, isn't love. 

[crackaddict]

On the topic of disappointing men, was anyone else upset with ML's father and his refusal at her requests on behalf of her dead mother? 

 

What a richard simmons... hope he gets his comeuppance. 

[minglan1]

@crackaddict I didn't like how Shen Hong wanted to brush aside the possibility of foul play in ML mom's demise.He is a shrewd guy and I feel he has guessed in part that the inner court ladies had not played fair in the circumstances leading to her death.At this point he is too worried of not getting his household involved in a scandal.

He comes across as a very selfish man.

[leeza77]

48 minutes ago, m0us3y said:

That's exactly what I meant. He doesn't let himself go, and he doesn't let her go. In a way, it's a guilt trip. That a man of his status would "do" so much for her. Although everything he does, she doesn't actually benefit. If anything, he's only hurting her by promising something he cant deliver. But it's enough to tie her down and make her feel like she should reciprocate. 

This, in my view, isn't love. 

Yes and then the gifting ML with the male porcelain doll.. What's supppsed to mean.. As a token for ML to not forget him?? Luckily ML's insight was excellent. Better had a clean break, and return all the dolls to QH. 

[Golden Flower]

3 hours ago, ForgottenSoulx said:

People act like all women were second class yet there are loads of example's of women going over men like Princess general's and empresses taking control of kingdom's etc.. yet a concubine daughter being a steward is to much? 

I think you’re not understanding some of us comments here since you’re viewing this drama from 21st century younger westerner point of view.  You need to have exposure and knowledge to Chinese history, culture, traditional beliefs, and literature to be able to get some of the details and nuisances that this drama is trying to portray. 

Yes, there has been women generals, Empress Dowager Regents and even female emperor Wu Zitien (Tang dynasty) in Chinese history but those women were only a handful and they’re representative of only the most privileged class of women. They do not represent most Chinese women in ancient China. Women rights and freedom even varies among different dynasties and kingdoms and among different classes. What we’re seeing in this drama supposedly represent second class females (first class being imperial females) in Northern early Song Dynasty. Tang Dynasty was golden age of women rights and freedom and most of those famous women in history like Emperor Wu came from this Dynasty. Women rights in early Song Dynasty supposedly better though not as free as Tang. With wide spread acceptance of Neo-Confucianism, women rights and freedom have declined in Song later. The period that this drama is based on widows can remarry, women can request mutual separation ho li from their husband and can remarry (ML’s cousin, Shu Lan got ho li from Sun Shu Caí and later remarried in the book) and can own properties. In later Song, Ming dynasty, widows remarrying was looked down upon, and she could not keep her dowries and late husband’s properties if remarried and women cannot own any properties in Qing dynasty. Getting divorced (Sho Shu) vs mutual separation (Ho Li) have huge difference since women cannot remarry and had to live in shame if she got Sho Shu from her husband. Men can divorce women based on seven factors including not being filial to in-laws, not being able to have children, being jealous by not allowing men to have concubines even if she doesn’t want to leave him. That’s why Shulan’s family was dead set on getting her Ho Li letter instead even in the expense of her Dowry. If she gets Sho Shu, not only she has to live in shame, her sisters and even paternal female cousins will have a hard time getting proper marriages and her paternal family members including brothers will be looked down upon. In some dynasties, women cannot get Ho Li from despicable husbands and had to live in mesery at their husbands’ home. 

 

You can read basic ancient Chinese women rights 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_ancient_and_imperial_China  

 

I'm NOT saying drama has to reflect accurately of Song dynasties rules. What I was commenting before was there are inconstistencies between scenes regards to permitted conducts of women, separation of women and men, women status, women and their family reputation while emphasizing on theme that women life being difficult because of those societal rules. I would not care or notice these details if drama is not stressing on those societal rules.

Being shu and youngest daughter, ML would not have become steward in aristrocratic Sheng family in any dynasty of ancient China. It would have been Rulan who is managing if help is really needed from daughter. WS and her father could have sold shu daughter off if they needed money in that society. So, do you think she would be given the most important position in back compound?

 

Of course, everyone has right to their own opinion. This is just a drama and we’re not living in Song Dynasty after all. For me, I'm watching this drama not just for fun but for cultural and literary experiences as my Mandarin is not good enough to read the novel (it will be very slow) and audio book is a bit boring to focus (my understanding of Mandarin is best when I read chinese subtitle when listening to conversations). So, inconstistency of script and out of place scene in drama get my attention. 

 

I did not care about historical and societal inaccuracies in Legend of Luzhen (another ZLY's drama) as I already know that there is no real female prime minister Lu Zhen exists and the actual women they're referencing is wet-nurse of Emperor and he honored her like his mother and that was the reason she was able to influence the court politics. 

 

Spoiler

They should have that middle divider curtain in the middle since they started showing adult actors in class. They started putting it in only after Kong Momo left and girls returned to class. Actually, girls should have stopped going to class if there are non-relative males after they turned 12-13 (In the book, QH’s mom hinted to teacher Zhaung that it was inappropriate as Molan and Rulan already old enough 12-13 and they stopped) but I accept that drama needs male female interactions and being in same classroom reduce wasting additional resources for needing to create their interaction scenes in somwhere else. Molan serving tea to QH in the living room also raised alarm in my head. She is supposed to stay with other females behind the divider and it is not her place to serve tea and showing her face as unmarried upper class female. When QH went to women area behind divider in the living room after he lost his handkerchief and later sit there, I was like what? It is not acceptable for visitor non-relative male to sit in female area behind the curtain. I just told myself it might be ok because the dad is there. Big Madam berrated and punished CF for bringing outside male to back compound when he brought store buyers to help Lin Yiniang rid of accusation of cheating with that guy. 

 I was surprised when Dr. He was allowed at grandmom's place Shou An Tang in the back compound. He was allowed because he was a doctor?  In gathering in Gu fu in epi 27, men are coming into back compound where females are sitting and eating though they did not show male and female sitting together. Molan going into QH's and Liang designated place without her brother or WS accompanying her, making poetry with them, talking with Liang Liu alone away from her family area (even if her maid is around) did not cause gossip but ML playing Polo with QH along with three other pairs on her own horse out in the open under the eyes of everyone caused bad reputation??? Although ML rebutted that Molan talking to Lian was bad, she was not punished and nobody else mentioned about it. I understand that the writers think that they need to create a few meetings between Molan and Liang Liu in order for her to scheme him later as viewers might not get why could she scheme a guy and make him marry her if she did not impress him before and he has no interest in her. However, they could have included CF in Molan and Liang Liu scenes at Polo game in order to avoid inconsistences. 

 

Although I mentioned before I understand QH's action in helping ML at Polo was justifiable as he was so in love and he thought his parents would approve of him marrying her if gossips come out. Technically, they could not have played together as WS would have stopped them playing together since she is the main mother and she is supposed to protect the girls' and family reputation. ML is technically her daughter and ML's bad reputation of trying to get marriage above her station is same as her face getting slapped and spitted. The gossip would not only effect ML but also all Sheng's sisters (that's what Kong Momo mentioned when she was disciplining them and ML's conversation with QH about why she cannot gamble her reputation and be cautious as a girl's bad reputation will effect whole family and even married sisters).