[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Rise of Phoenixes 凰权·弈天下

[brutusthebear]

Just binged watched this series and am super saddened by the ending ! I agree that the script writers  created an ending that the content of the show really didn’t support. 

Spoiler

fZW still wanted to be with Ning Yi even after the emporer killed off her only 2 family members. Yet we’re

 supposed to believe that the death of Zhangsun Hong and some bloody pagoda members, she does a complete 180 and thinks they can’t be together? And that this event led to her desire to off herself ? I think that’s a bit of a stretch. It feels like the script writers wanted a particular ending and the shoddy plot line in the last 10 episodes reflects that. 

 

Plus I feel that the “misunderstandings” between fZW and Ning Yi really were contrived. They’re both portrayed as clever people. The writers script where  Ning Yi suspected FZW of abducting his mother was just so far fetched and out of character for him. 

He was already investigating the Guohuang gang and knew they were working with the Privce of Wei. Being the calculating person that he is, he would’ve considered the possibility that this was a “wrong place, wrong time” sort of thing as to why FZWs bodyguard has his mother. 

 

Likewise, it’s not really in character for FZW to believe Zhangsun Hong when he claims that Ning Yi wants the entire bloody pagoda dead. She asked Zhangsun Hong  “what are you hiding from me?” but never really followed up on that. 

 

 

 

Anyways, sorry for the rant. I just feel that the show was so strong until the last 10 or so episodes. Such a shame!

 

I’m now rewatching the series to pick up on nuances I may have missed the first time through. It doesn’t make sense to me why it was not a big deal for

 

Spoiler

the Qius to send in FZW’s birth card, essentially lieing to the emperor by marrying off someone that’s not daughter. But when FZW joined the court as a “male”, it was a crime punisheable by death when she admitted to her lie. Hmmm?

 

Edited October 15, 2018 by brutusthebear

[ElleSor]

I totally get the ending.

 

FZW believed she would be a burden to NY in any capacity. If she were to be empress, she would constantly be criticized by both her people and his people. If she would be the Dacheng princess, she would forever be a hostage for the emperor (NY). If would be a commoner, she would always be concerned for NY and I'm willing to bet others would continually harass her. If she would be the Queen of Jinshi, she would still be harassed by others to either revolt against the empire or revive Dacheng in Jinshi. It's like she's at a dead end and killing herself is the only solution she had. 

 

Now here's the clincher, I really believe that there could have been a better solution. I get that she promised to never marry NY but that didn't mean that she had to kill herself. If they just gave it a lot more thought, they would have reach a compromise. I have yet to read the book so I just have an inkling about the ending in that version but the drama version doesn't sound like FZW at all. So many peple sacrificed for her...to let her live and she expended so much effort to live in the entire drama just to kill herself in the end. As for NY, he just totally ignored the fact that FZW made an oath not to marry him. He could've just kept her as the Ultimate Scholar (hehehe, with benefits of course) or maybe just let her come to terms with their new characters (try to woo her, maybe) instead of pressuring her to be empress. 

 

I'd like to think that they would reincarnate somewhere along the line of life and get together without any complications.  

 

Thoughts anyone? 

 

[tendrilsofwind]

I feel the most for Feng Zhiwei. The contrast between the first and last episodes are almost too much to bear. I always thought that the one thing she was most haunted by was how little agency she had. In the beginning she seemed to think that if she had more power, she would be able to protect herself and her family and all the voiceless in the world, but the higher she advanced, the more she lost and the higher the stakes became. That's why it's so important for Ning Yi to ask her what she wants. FZW wants freedom and the power to change other people's lives for the better, but in asking her to stay and be his empress, he is giving her a golden cage. The worst thing is Ning Yi knows what her ideals are and he's still asking her to stay because he cannot bear to be trapped in that expansive palace without her. 

 

Ning Yi also never laid himself bare in front of Feng Zhiwei. All the times when she tried to bear the burden with him, he pushed her away, so I don't think hiding her feelings can be seem as emblematic of a silly girl when it's a very human reaction. The slow progression of his relationship with Feng Zhiwei made me all the more invested. Somehow knowing how flawed Ning Yi was made me even more infatuated with him. Can there be a more iconic ship??

 

I also loved the dynamic between the Emperor and all his sons. I still remember in the first few episodes, when Ning Yi was deep in thought, Ning Cheng asked if he was thinking about FZW, but he was in reality caught up in deciphering the sincerity of his father's concern for him. This power struggle between father and sons is so integral to Chinese dynasties, but most shows shy away from depicting just how dark it gets, instead focusing primarily on the fighting between brothers. I was so torn in loving and hating the emperor. He was kind at times to Wei Zhi and Xin Ziyan, but also so suddenly cruel. When he essentially forced Zhiwei to volunteer herself to be Helian Zheng's wife, I was shook. The actor is really so good. Sometimes I would actually believe he loved his sons--even Ning Yi briefly believed his father could love him. Ning Yi's face when he realized his dad wanted him to be Yushitai   This depiction of all his sons yearning desperately for affection of a man who only saw them as tools tugged on my heartstrings.

 

[Pollen Ainne]

1 hour ago, haruhi17 said:

I'm rewatching the series, my favorite scenes (I seriously can't let go, yet. Lol), and man, i just love our OTP at the start and middle, but towards the end, I don't get them.  I feel like i'm watching something from Body Snatchers.  Lol.  They're so different! I can't get them anymore, where they are coming from, especially when they interact with each other.  ZW became irritating to me, with her letting emotion overtake her good sense and as for NY, he became possessive of ZW that bordered on creepy, and his new face didn't help one bit.  Lol.  And yes, i'm talking about the bed scene...it was jarring to see him push her like that..for one thing, he threatened HZ that if he'd ever hurt her, he'd kill him, but here he is hurting her by mistreating her as if he could do it just because he's Emperor.. i hate that scene!   then, the next scene was them being okay and talking.  The transition was really off.  Anyone here felt like cringing when watching that scene the first time?

lol. Actually the entire last 2 episodes was pure cringe for me (maybe with some exceptions here and there). The editing was sloppy. The characters were strangers. Actually they were better off when they were strangers. They trusted each other more before they knew each other well, than in the last episodes. NIng Yi was not someone I liked anymore, long before he became emperor actually. And Zhiwei was a shell of herself. Ning Yi pushing Zhiwei on the bed didn't really put me off, yes I am weird like that! But their conversation and the reason they were there in the first place made me extremely frustrated. 

 

The plot went like this: (this is from my memory. this is not the exact script ok! lol)

Ning Yi: You only have yourself to bargain, sleep with me

Zhiwei: Fine, whatever

(Zhiwei undresses)

Ning Yi: Why are you willing to sleep with me

Zhiwei: I have always wanted to sleep with you, now I have an excuse since you are forcing me to (yes the script is this silly)

Ning Yi: (pushes Zhiwei to the bed) What the hell are you talking about (and I am like, yeah I don't get why you are angry either)

Zhiwei: I know there is light in your heart (huh? where did that come from?)

(And suddenly they are all lovey dovey)

Zhiwei: Let my people go (Yeah way to ruin the lovey dovery)

And then my brain just shut off.

[haruhi17]

2 minutes ago, Pollen Ainne said:

The plot went like this: (this is from my memory. this is not the exact script ok! lol)

Ning Yi: You only have yourself to bargain, sleep with me

Zhiwei: Fine, whatever

(Zhiwei undresses)

Ning Yi: Why are you willing to sleep with me

Zhiwei: I have always wanted to sleep with you, now I have an excuse since you are forcing me to (yes the script is this silly)

Ning Yi: (pushes Zhiwei to the bed) What the hell are you talking about (and I am like, yeah I don't get why you are angry either)

Zhiwei: I know there is light in your heart (huh? where did that come from?)

(And suddenly they are all lovey dovey)

Zhiwei: Let my people go (Yeah way to ruin the lovey dovery)

And then my brain just shut off.

 

LOL. Yeah, I believe we're not the only ones. Our brains couldn't (still can't) compute that scene. Can anyone please rewrite this scene to what it should have been? I would do it but I'm no writer. Lol.

[Pollen Ainne]

1 hour ago, brutusthebear said:

Just binged watched this series and am super saddened by the ending ! I agree that the script writers  created an ending that the content of the show really didn’t support. 

  Hide contents

fZW still wanted to be with Ning Yi even after the emporer killed off her only 2 family members. Yet we’re

 supposed to believe that the death of Zhangsun Hong and some bloody pagoda members, she does a complete 180 and thinks they can’t be together? And that this event led to her desire to off herself ? I think that’s a bit of a stretch. It feels like the script writers wanted a particular ending and the shoddy plot line in the last 10 episodes reflects that. 

 

Plus I feel that the “misunderstandings” between fZW and Ning Yi really were contrived. They’re both portrayed as clever people. The writers script where  Ning Yi suspected FZW of abducting his mother was just so far fetched and out of character for him. 

He was already investigating the Guohuang gang and knew they were working with the Privce of Wei. Being the calculating person that he is, he would’ve considered the possibility that this was a “wrong place, wrong time” sort of thing as to why FZWs bodyguard has his mother. 

 

Likewise, it’s not really in character for FZW to believe Zhangsun Hong when he claims that Ning Yi wants the entire bloody pagoda dead. She asked Zhangsun Hong  “what are you hiding from me?” but never really followed up on that. 

 

 

 

Anyways, sorry for the rant. I just feel that the show was so strong until the last 10 or so episodes. Such a shame!

 

I’m now rewatching the series to pick up on nuances I may have missed the first time through. It doesn’t make sense to me why it was not a big deal for

 

  Reveal hidden contents

the Qius to send in FZW’s birth card, essentially lieing to the emperor by marrying off someone that’s not daughter. But when FZW joined the court as a “male”, it was a crime punisheable by death when she admitted to her lie. Hmmm?

 

Yep, I can see many people see this wreck of an ending. The script writer really needs to be sent a razor.

 

1 hour ago, ElleSor said:

I totally get the ending.

 

FZW believed she would be a burden to NY in any capacity. If she were to be empress, she would constantly be criticized by both her people and his people. If she would be the Dacheng princess, she would forever be a hostage for the emperor (NY). If would be a commoner, she would always be concerned for NY and I'm willing to bet others would continually harass her. If she would be the Queen of Jinshi, she would still be harassed by others to either revolt against the empire or revive Dacheng in Jinshi. It's like she's at a dead end and killing herself is the only solution she had. 

Actually, she didn't have to make a choice about any of these things. If she chooses to live, she will be Ning Yi's wife. They wanted to be together, they have struggled to be together. No point in not being together if they can. And as an Empress I don't believe anyone from TIansheng would criticize her. She was already given the title of princess of Tiansheng. Her being the Empress means acceptance of a new era. The uniting of the old and the new. All that BS that Ning Shizheng stated at the end was just the script writer finding excuses. As for the Bloody Pagoda, so few of them are left and with their leaders dead, they only have Zhiwei. They can be her underground army or something. Would be so cool. 

 

1 hour ago, tendrilsofwind said:

Ning Yi also never laid himself bare in front of Feng Zhiwei. All the times when she tried to bear the burden with him, he pushed her away, so I don't think hiding her feelings can be seem as emblematic of a silly girl when it's a very human reaction. The slow progression of his relationship with Feng Zhiwei made me all the more invested. Somehow knowing how flawed Ning Yi was made me even more infatuated with him. Can there be a more iconic ship??
 

By what definition do you lay yourself bare? He confessed that he liked her and that he was afraid to even say it out loud. You have an all powerful scheming prince nervously confessing to you, anything more would just ruin his character. Actions speak louder than words. When Zhiwei was in jail, he gave her all his cards. Told her he would lie and say she is pregnant with his child, which of course would definitely destroy his facade of not knowing her identity. I mean he couldn't have gotten her pregnant if he didn't know she was a girl. And he even gave her a paper with an order saying it was him who forced her to do everything. He was willing to sacrifice himself for her.

 

As for sharing the burden with him... the only time I can tell that he legitimately pushed Zhiwei away was when his mother died. By that time, I could not recognize Ning Yi anymore. He actually believe Zhiwei could have something to do with it. This after Zhiwei refused to believe he had anything to do with Master Zong's death. This is Ning Yi's ultimate failure to me. He was the first one to loose faith. The moment he gave up his status of prince, I think he also gave up his entire character.

 

The problem with normal human reaction, is that one person has to break the barrier for there to be a connection. The thing is that the breaking was supposed to be Zhiwei's role as Ning Yi was the darker character in the story. So the moment she lost that purity and descended into anger, they were lost. 

[Pollen Ainne]

37 minutes ago, haruhi17 said:

 

LOL. Yeah, I believe we're not the only ones. Our brains couldn't (still can't) compute that scene. Can anyone please rewrite this scene to what it should have been? I would do it but I'm no writer. Lol.

Ugh! If I rewrite that into anything, they would have a happy ending. And it would be rated X. lol!

[morganian]

9 hours ago, niniandkun said:

 

sounds like it could be the male version of this but idk how to search :/

Love this song. My fave out of the OST. No idea what the lyrics mean though.

 

[morganian]

3 hours ago, niniandkun said:

 

I feel bad going on about this oath thing but if zhiwei had atleast not made one about her own soul. Like screw qiu mingying now ugh maybe she deserves to not find peace after killing two of her kids, but she had to be all extra and make one about herself! Thats when ningyi was all hey hey calm down woman i'll back off. And then they had that iconic rain scene both of them promising to wait for each other in the afterlife. I know thats silly to us (for me anyway) throwing away your current life for this supposed next life? but it means so much in their world. Ningyi didnt rest until he avenged his brother with the kind of fervor that makes you think he was alive in our world in great torment and zhiwei was ready to give her life to fulfill that bloody pagoda kid's last wish. They were both idealistic and sort of childlike in their beliefs and principles about the world. To then ignore the oath cuz its inconvenient just seems really off for their characters.

This oath was made just to make way for their tragic end :/

In the novel its a different oath i think? One about dacheng?

Yep, the initial oath ( and Headmaster Xin's comment about their love being doomed even before it can start) was a narrative device. Kind of like how Romeo and Juliet prefaces with 'From forth the loins of these two foes, A pair of star-crossed lovers take their life'.

 

The deaths of Feng Hao and Qiu Mingying followed by FZW's horrible oath are similar to the death of Mercutio and the curse 'a plague on both your houses', are literary nails in the coffin so to speak. 

 

The writers/editors were using these plot markers to show viewers that FZW and NY's love was predestined to fail. Either FZW had to die, or NY had to die, or both had to die. To expect either of them to cheat death is wishful thinking. And if RotP was going for a different ending, these markers would have not been there. So yeah, FZW's second oath was the worst: it was the narrative point of no return. 

 

However, despite knowing R & J are doomed, we still cherish their bright moments together. And the ending is short and sweet. FZW and NY spent much of the latter episodes saying goodbye to each other; it was a bit repetitive, soul-destroying, and could have been written/edited differently. Why not have Heliang/Prince of An/the 4th Dacheng Prince keep FZW away from NY out of anger/spite, heap on a whole bunch of misunderstandings and then have FZW seriously wound NY/NSZ? FZW would instantly regret her action,  and redeem herself with an honourable death (execution, enforced suicide) but not before securing safety for the Dacheng with a third party (ie Headmaster Xin, or the 10th prince). It would be similar to how Consort Chang died, which was poignant, lengthy and achieved some form of redemption for the character and safety for the princess.

 

So many ways achieve the same outcome or 'skin a little racoon'. It could have been done without destroying FZW's spirit or the love between her and NY. And I would have liked an epilogue of NY n his ripe old age, after having stailised the empire drifting off into a final sleep, dreaming of being a commoner, and meeting the reincarnated FZW. 

 

 

[Pollen Ainne]

20 minutes ago, morganian said:

Yep, the initial oath ( and Headmaster Xin's comment about their love being doomed even before it can start) was a narrative device. Kind of like how Romeo and Juliet prefaces with 'From forth the loins of these two foes, A pair of star-crossed lovers take their life'.

 

The deaths of Feng Hao and Qiu Mingying followed by FZW's horrible oath are similar to the death of Mercutio and the curse 'a plague on both your houses', are literary nails in the coffin so to speak. 

 

The writers/editors were using these plot markers to show viewers that FZW and NY's love was predestined to fail. Either FZW had to die, or NY had to die, or both had to die. To expect either of them to cheat death is wishful thinking. And if RotP was going for a different ending, these markers would have not been there. So yeah, FZW's second oath was the worst: it was the narrative point of no return. 

 

However, despite knowing R & J are doomed, we still cherish their bright moments together. And the ending is short and sweet. FZW and NY spent much of the latter episodes saying goodbye to each other; it was a bit repetitive, soul-destroying, and could have been written/edited differently. Why not have Heliang/Prince of An/the 4th Dacheng Prince keep FZW away from NY out of anger/spite, heap on a whole bunch of misunderstandings and then have FZW seriously wound NY/NSZ? FZW would instantly regret her action,  and redeem herself with an honourable death (execution, enforced suicide) but not before securing safety for the Dacheng with a third party (ie Headmaster Xin, or the 10th prince). It would be similar to how Consort Chang died, which was poignant, lengthy and achieved some form of redemption for the character and safety for the princess.

 

So many ways achieve the same outcome or 'skin a little racoon'. It could have been done without destroying FZW's spirit or the love between her and NY. And I would have liked an epilogue of NY n his ripe old age, after having stailised the empire drifting off into a final sleep, dreaming of being a commoner, and meeting the reincarnated FZW. 

 

 

Brilliant. You are right. What was tragic in this series was the ending script, and not the ending itself. The ending was simply abhorrent. There are so many ways to write a beautiful tragedy, this one is definitely not it.

[morganian]

53 minutes ago, Pollen Ainne said:

Brilliant. You are right. What was tragic in this series was the ending script, and not the ending itself. The ending was simply abhorrent. There are so many ways to write a beautiful tragedy, this one is definitely not it.

Yep, I would have preferred something like this:

Scene at the underground slave market:

- 4th Dacheng prince and FZW talk. He admits that he is dying and that FZW needs to take up the Dacheng mission. When he realises that FZW is not going along with his revenge BS, he makes her promise to look after his people, when he's gone. He tells her to trust Yueling as Yueling is his closest confidante. 

- Heliang asks FZW to return to Jinshi with him now that a month is up. FZW refuses to go back to Jinshi. She tells him again that she doesn't love him. She asks him to take the Dacheng prince and his followers back to Jinshi with him and give them refuge. This conversation is overheard by the Dacheng prince.

- Once FZW leaves, Dacheng prince tells Heliang that FZW will only love him once she sees Ning Yi's bad side. Heliang kind of wants this but still refuses to do something so dishonourable as to trick Ning Yi. 

- Dacheng prince then contacts Yueling and asks her to betray Dacheng/Heliang to Ning Cheng. Yueling says that she can't because Ning Cheng will kill him. He says he's dying anyway; FZW must be made to hate Ning Yi in order for his dream of Dacheng to be fullfilled.

****

Scene in the mountains

- Ning Chen confronts Heliang as the Jinshi leave Tiansheng.

- Ning Yi tries to stop Ning Chen. When Ning Yi tries to give everyone amnesty, and says that he will give everyone a fair trial, Heliang still continues to fight, wounding Ning Chen in the process. Ning Yi threatens him with FZW's life, saying that he cannot protect her while Dacheng continues to revolt. Heliang throws down his sword, but the Dacheng prince shoots him in the back with his crossbow. Ning Yi gets pissed and throws his sword into the Dacheng prince's heart. Both Heliang and the Dacheng prince die. 

- Yueling watches on, hidden in the trees, devastated and angry at the same time.

****

Wei Residence

- Yueling bursts into the Wei Residence, startling Gu Nanyi and FZW. She looks like she has just come back from a massacre. In her hand is something that is distinctly Heliang's and is covered in blood. 

- She tells them both that Ning Yi has killed both Heliang and Dacheng and thrown the Jinshi representatives and the Dacheng into prison. She tells her that this is exactly what the Dacheng prince predicted and that the Dacheng will never find peace until all of the Nings are dead. She urges FZW to take revenge on Ning Yi.

- Gu Nanyi tells FZW to be careful, but FZW shrugs him off and tells him that she must go to the palace and plead for her people.

****

The Palace

- FZW petitions for an audience with Ning Yi.

- She demands to know why Ning Yi killed Heliang and Dacheng prince. After all, the Dacheng are recluses and just want to live peacefully under the Tiansheng empire.

- Ning Yi finds her idealism funny and starts laughing. He starts to refute her with a description of all the crimes that have been committed through Bloody Pagoda, etc., including the death of his own mother. He does not correct her about Heliang's death but he does admit to killing the Dacheng prince.

- FZW asks him to be merciful towards the Dacheng followers. Now that there is no leader to stir them, they will no longer cause trouble for the Tiansheng empire.

- Ning Yi points out that she is still a remnant of the Dacheng Empire. He tells her to submit to him and to Tiansheng.

- FZW says that she already did and has to his father, NSZ.

- Ning Yi arches an eyebrow and says, 'Completely submit to me. Forever.' (Or something like that).

- FZW pretends to go along with this, and when he gets close, she pulls out the hairpin that he made for her and stabs him with it.

- Guards run in and pull FZW away from Ning Yi. Ning Yi stares at her in disbelief as she is dragged away.

****

The Prison

- After Yueling got caught (due to the Prince of Wei's betrayal?), she is put in the cell next to FZW. Both learn that Ning Yi is dead and that the 10th prince is soon to be crowned as Emperor. Yueling is extremely happy with this news while FZW expresses regret. Yueling does not understand FZW's sorrow: 'So many people died because of you and Ning Yi. Do you not think of that?' She lets slip that the Dacheng prince killed Heliang and caused the retaliatory response from Ning Yi. FZW is devastated when she finds out that she has been duped. She falls into her customary slump whenever someone close to her dies. 

- Headmaster Xin visits FZW. He confirms Yueling's words, gives closure to a few other subplots. He tells FZW that what she did was very bad and that nothing can save her. 'Ning Yi wanted the laws of the Tiansheng to apply to everyone, rich or poor, family or foe. Ning Ji cannot change the rule of law for you.' 

- FZW agrees. No point living any more anyway, now that Ning Yi is dead. 

- Headmaster Xin puts a small vial in front of her, and tells her it is the swiftest, most painless poison that is known and that Ning Ji has offered this to her instead of a public execution for her years service for the Emperor and the affection Ning Yi had for her. 

- FZW thanks him. Before she takes the poison, she asks if he could ask Ning Ji to be merciful towards the remaining Dacheng followers. Headmaster Xin tells her that it has already been done; Ning Ji has been extremely merciful and have allowed them to relocate to Minghai. Satisfied that her duty to the Dacheng followers has been fullfilled, FZW says something like, 'At least I will see him again in the afterlife.' She drinks the poison and dies.

 

****

Prince of Chu's residence:

- Ning Yi is recovering from his wound. When he finds out what Headmaster Xin has done, he's pretty pissed.

- Headmaster Xin explains that this is how the empire should be run. He reminds Ning Yi of the dream they once had, and how he would have preferred Ning Yi to be emperor still, but this is how things should be. He also tells Ning Yi not to kill him, since he needs to answer for the crime of killing Lady Wang as well, and asks Ning Yi to look after Dahua for him when he's gone.

*****

- Ning Yi becomes counsellor to Emperor Ning Ji. Under their rule, Tiansheng experiences peace and prosperity. There is no corruption, etc.

- We see Ning Yi as an older man, playing his flute(?). He clutches at his heart and falls to his knees. And then he hears the sound of a corresponding flute. He looks up and sees FZW as he remembered her and he smiles.

[Pollen Ainne]

7 hours ago, morganian said:

- Once FZW leaves, Dacheng prince tells Heliang that FZW will only love him once she sees Ning Yi's bad side. Heliang kind of wants this but still refuses to do something so dishonourable as to trick Ning Yi. 

Yes please. I have been so angry as to what happened to our main leads I forgot about poor Helian Zheng. He basically became just a pawn of the 4th prince. What a waste of character.

 

7 hours ago, morganian said:

- Headmaster Xin visits FZW. He confirms Yueling's words, gives closure to a few other subplots. He tells FZW that what she did was very bad and that nothing can save her. 'Ning Yi wanted the laws of the Tiansheng to apply to everyone, rich or poor, family or foe. Ning Ji cannot change the rule of law for you.' 

- FZW agrees. No point living any more anyway, now that Ning Yi is dead. 

- Headmaster Xin puts a small vial in front of her, and tells her it is the swiftest, most painless poison that is known and that Ning Ji has offered this to her instead of a public execution for her years service for the Emperor and the affection Ning Yi had for her. 

- FZW thanks him. Before she takes the poison, she asks if he could ask Ning Ji to be merciful towards the remaining Dacheng followers. Headmaster Xin tells her that it has already been done; Ning Ji has been extremely merciful and have allowed them to relocate to Minghai. Satisfied that her duty to the Dacheng followers has been fullfilled, FZW says something like, 'At least I will see him again in the afterlife.' She drinks the poison and dies.

 

****

Prince of Chu's residence:

- Ning Yi is recovering from his wound. When he finds out what Headmaster Xin has done, he's pretty pissed.

- Headmaster Xin explains that this is how the empire should be run. He reminds Ning Yi of the dream they once had, and how he would have preferred Ning Yi to be emperor still, but this is how things should be. He also tells Ning Yi not to kill him, since he needs to answer for the crime of killing Lady Wang as well, and asks Ning Yi to look after Dahua for him when he's gone.

*****

- Ning Yi becomes counsellor to Emperor Ning Ji. Under their rule, Tiansheng experiences peace and prosperity. There is no corruption, etc.

- We see Ning Yi as an older man, playing his flute(?). He clutches at his heart and falls to his knees. And then he hears the sound of a corresponding flute. He looks up and sees FZW as he remembered her and he smiles.

Oh no, no no. Let us not torture Headmaster Xin some more. He already killed Lady Wang, that is too much burden on him already. Killing Ning Yi's beloved without his knowledge is completely out of the question. And if Zhiwei has to die, I would prefer Ning Yi to remain emperor. If Ning Ji becomes emperor before Ning Yi realizes his dream, there is no point to all of it. The entire story might as well be erased. Even if Ning Yi doesn't realize everything, he needs like at least 2-5 years to lay out foundations for Ning Ji. I am sorry but I would almost prefer the butchered ending to this one. It spells total defeat.

 

As for Zhiwei dying. I would prefer to stir out of suicide and have her die a valiant death which would be suitable for her character strength. Preferably to protect Ning Yi. She could also die for her people but we will need like 10 more episodes for that, because at this point, her connection to her people is very flimsy at best. She needs to be crowned Empress of Da Cheng to start sacrificing for them and make it look heart wrenching instead of an "smh" moment. And they definitely need to have a last honest conversation so we can cry about it and get it out of our system. lol

[skibbies]

I'm catching up bunch of pages so going back to some discussion way back.

Re: when the emperor finds out about Zhiwei, when her mum and brother were both determined to keep her alive. Zhiwei figured it out, the emperor is even smarter so he would too. Actually Feng Hao figured it out too so everyone knew.

 

Re: multiple endings. I think the talking one actually feels like epilogue to what we got, as closure for the relationship, and explanation for character motivation. I'm curious how much of the novel plot they actually filmed because the initial script stuck presumbly lot closer to the novel.

 

Someone asked ages ago about novel and drama difference. The drama uses half the book as framework (50 episodes) + sprinkles of third arc (till about 63 but they mostly kept character names and major events). Character dynamics and personalities are pretty different, the drama basically pulled distinctive traits from novel characters then expanded them/made them realistic(ish).

 

On 10/14/2018 at 11:54 PM, Pollen Ainne said:

I actually hated that part in the bridge where she asked "You've never asked what I wanted?" I was like... girl, you were always one to demand what you wanted, he never needed to ask you anything, that was what was awesome about you. So who is this damsel that wanted to be asked? Once again a stranger. The characters have become strangers to us, and strangers to each other.

 

And she she also said "With a few words you want me to stay." I hope there is something wrong with that translation because it was dramatic in the trailers but was a face palm moment when given context. He was just asking her to stay... no he was begging her to stay. For some reason Zhiwei has turned into one of those illogical girls. This would have been the perfect time to bargain for her people. She should have sobbed and told him "So you will protect me, but what about my people? Where can they go?" Would that have been so hard? At this point Ning Yi would have given her the world. She was the princess of the previous Dynasty and they were being rooted out but because of Ning Yi, no one could touch her. She had a sword drawn into the neck of the captain of the Royal guards, and they walked away with her unscathed. I was really amazed. Had it been anyone else, they would be dead or tortured. 

The power dynamic changed I think. He was "a useless prince" before, and she was a girl caught in power struggle. Now he's the Tiansheng Emperor and she's Jinshi Empress, Dacheng Princess. He changed because after his mum's death, he's desperately holding onto people he loves, but she feels he's demanding her to stay, because he has that power, because the previous emperor held the same power over her and her family's lives. She loves him a lot, but she also doesn't want to stay I think, there's been too many deaths and Tiansheng isn't really her home anymore, if he wasn't an emperor, it'd be easier, there'd be less obligations.

 

Sobbing to get him to protect her people doesn't really feel like her style. she's too proud. She did negotiate, she did it by sleeping with him. It's why he was so angry with her at the time. He holds it sacred, and he mentioned it in anger but was surprised that she agreed, thought it was a sweet romantic thing, but nope, she used it to negotiate. (and also because she wanted to but still)

[skibbies]

On 10/14/2018 at 1:22 PM, tendrilsofwind said:

I enter alone into helplessness

 

My constant disdain for death only witnessed by a sword

First I want to applaud you for translating these lyrics because just the thought of translating them makes me want to cry, I think you did a fantastic job.

 

Just some additional notes: 奈何 naihe can also reference Naihe Qiao, the bridge that every soul have to pass and drink Mengpo soup to forget their previous lives before reincarnating. It's actually what I thought of when I first heard the song even though even though helplessness fits better. The segment in both of the song can be taken as them being separated by life and death. Interestingly enough in Ning Yi's "I traverse alone" 渡 implies he's crossing a river or bridge, even though from context, it should be him living his life alone? Is it a typo? Or I suppose both songs could be from when they died, at different times, rather than when FZW died.

 

轻生's literal meaning is making light of one's life, usually a euphemism for suicide, though it doesn't make sense in context. It's just lots of death? they directly and indirectly caused a lot of death? I'm not sure about disdain?

 

EDIT: Sweet. Found the documentary on youtube but it's not in a playlist. why this. It's twenty episodes of 10 ~ 15mins making of documentary. I don't think it's subbed yet but I want to link it here first because YOU REALLY SHOULD SEE THIS. It spoilers the whole series so tread carefully. They are all links because embedding 20 videos seems bit much.

Spoiler

The World of Ning Yi part 1 & 2: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekx7yHGxqS8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juEMm07pYi8

Getting to know Zhi Wei part 1 & 2: (the title is an idiom pun...)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTH_yWOU8lY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iJppAQGBck

Older supporting characters part 1 & 2: (the title is reference to a sword from Return of Condor Heroes, something like plain looking sword can exert lot of power as long as the sword holder is powerful enough?) There's no interview with the emperor for some reason, sad face.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipIuK2H4J0Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCzBOp5HrOs

Younger supporting characters part 1&2: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFXRwPVEZ2I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ney9wyBPwXU

 

The beginning/inception: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmgoWUZsk7Y

The creators (mainly about the directors): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHa6DTmyR6Y

Theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDKc1gkqNPU

Costume: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKugxYi9Pw8

Art/Set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btTrFoPIO0M

Action (the action director is a very well known one from hk) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVbC9Csp0AQ

Etiquette (he's also responsible for etiquette in NiF, Legend of Mi Yue and Tribes & Empires: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM5_vVn944E

Special Effects: (it's mostly about the lake scene): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krhJXtvV5bM

Imaging? (this is more a general one, director mentions sending initial cut to SARFT): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-f1SNc-D_I

Post Productions (OST, editing and CG): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y85lYEPItVg

Extras: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGXZnovWYx8

Closing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aQkusSK9OA

 

 

Oh I found the playlist, it's hidden behind the trailers and initial short 2 or 1min teasers LOL. Documentary starts at 16.

[niniandkun]

12 hours ago, haruhi17 said:

I feel like i'm watching something from Body Snatchers

looolll!

 

12 hours ago, haruhi17 said:

he became possessive of ZW that bordered on creepy, and his new face didn't help one bit.

Yup.

 

11 hours ago, tendrilsofwind said:

I also loved the dynamic between the Emperor and all his sons. I still remember in the first few episodes, when Ning Yi was deep in thought, Ning Cheng asked if he was thinking about FZW, but he was in reality caught up in deciphering the sincerity of his father's concern for him. This power struggle between father and sons is so integral to Chinese dynasties, but most shows shy away from depicting just how dark it gets, instead focusing primarily on the fighting between brothers. I was so torn in loving and hating the emperor.

 

Definitely.  its easy to just notice ningyi's eccentricity in the beginning but its also the emperor's capricious demeanor and layered fear inducing portrayal of authority that gave us a good counter balance and frame of reference into all the prince's insecurities. Those long drawn out beginning to mid episodes apart from capturing details of the plot also gave us an intimate look into most of the prince's fractured mental states and what mechanism they resorted to cope with it. We could actually see why they were on their toes when in came to their father.

8 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

9 hours ago, morganian said:

Yep, the initial oath ( and Headmaster Xin's comment about their love being doomed even before it can start) was a narrative device. Kind of like how Romeo and Juliet prefaces with 'From forth the loins of these two foes, A pair of star-crossed lovers take their life'.

 

The deaths of Feng Hao and Qiu Mingying followed by FZW's horrible oath are similar to the death of Mercutio and the curse 'a plague on both your houses', are literary nails in the coffin so to speak. 

 

The writers/editors were using these plot markers to show viewers that FZW and NY's love was predestined to fail. Either FZW had to die, or NY had to die, or both had to die. To expect either of them to cheat death is wishful thinking. And if RotP was going for a different ending, these markers would have not been there. So yeah, FZW's second oath was the worst: it was the narrative point of no return. 

 

 

 

So many ways achieve the same outcome or 'skin a little racoon'. It could have been done without destroying FZW's spirit or the love between her and NY. And I would have liked an epilogue of NY n his ripe old age, after having stailised the empire drifting off into a final sleep, dreaming of being a commoner, and meeting the reincarnated FZW. 

 

 

Brilliant. You are right. What was tragic in this series was the ending script, and not the ending itself. The ending was simply abhorrent. There are so many ways to write a beautiful tragedy, this one is definitely not it.

 

Right on the dot!! But my gripe with this is that 

1) they didnt even have to make this a tragedy. There's enough serious artsy tragedies but not enough serious, wholesome, non cheesy, deserving happy endings. We've seen many 'titanics' and 'romeo & juliet' esque ill-fated lovers journeys.(even ill-fated non romantic journeys). Why do serious and meaningful stories need to be sad? I don't normally mind tragedies and I can appreciate the romanticism of it but I thought this show had the potential to make a really classic happy ending. Not just bittersweet but a true happy ending. Ni Ni and Chen Kun could've easily pulled it off without making it look contrived or cheesy. Its easy to make this a sad story but with rich characters and good writing/setting in the beginning it would've been a more impressive feat to realistically and intelligently drive the plot to point where our leads battle against the odds, grow as people and finally reap the rewards. I personally think its easy to make tragedies and even without trying a sad story will have that aura of deepness around it unless its so bad its funny. Its hard to pull off a satisfying and memorable happy ending because then it loses that default aura of seriousness, so the story and characters need to be more compelling.

 

2) like you guys said, if they had to, atleast make it a worthwhile tragedy that respects the characters personalities and the journeys they'd been on. The story from jinshi flood onwards should have been executed differently to facilitate this. 

 

8 hours ago, morganian said:

****

Prince of Chu's residence:

- Ning Yi is recovering from his wound. When he finds out what Headmaster Xin has done, he's pretty pissed.

- Headmaster Xin explains that this is how the empire should be run. He reminds Ning Yi of the dream they once had, and how he would have preferred Ning Yi to be emperor still, but this is how things should be. He also tells Ning Yi not to kill him, since he needs to answer for the crime of killing Lady Wang as well, and asks Ning Yi to look after Dahua for him when he's gone.

*****

- Ning Yi becomes counsellor to Emperor Ning Ji. Under their rule, Tiansheng experiences peace and prosperity. There is no corruption, etc.

- We see Ning Yi as an older man, playing his flute(?). He clutches at his heart and falls to his knees. And then he hears the sound of a corresponding flute. He looks up and sees FZW as he remembered her and he smiles.

 

OMG this was really fun to read! thanks for writing this. BUT FZW stabbing Ning Yi?? And xin ziyan feeding her poison? gosh No No No!!! Ning yi will never forgive ziyan!! Pissed is an understatement. I can't imagine ziyan daring to do that, he knows how much NY cares about her. Maybe lie to her so she'll disappear? i doubt he'd kill.

 

My personal idea of a meaningful tragedy (wish I had your imagination and writing skills to make a scenario :() is where zhiwei and ning yi finally get back on the same page, arent distrustful of each other and resolve their differences. Instead of that jinshi goodbye (there shouldnt have been a goodbye there) this is where she says goodbye for the last time after having a genuine 'moment' with him, maybe even cute dialogue (as tribute to their early days). He understands why she can't stay (politics, guilty conscience, depression, responsibility to remaining dacheng etc) and respects her decision. NY thinks its a permanent goodbye because shes going to travel the world. He is happy that she'll be alive and free. But her plan all along was to kill herself because this life was indeed to much to bear. Cue cliff scene.  NY now thinks he shouldve realized her plan in hindsight but its too late and hes got a mission bla...cannot join her until his duty to his empire is fulfilled. Cue imagining they were together on the cliff scene? Perhaps the "older Ning Yi playing his flute, clutches his heart and falls to his knees" scene you mentioned after?

 

[Pollen Ainne]

1 hour ago, skibbies said:

He changed because after his mum's death, he's desperately holding onto people he loves, but she feels he's demanding her to stay, because he has that power, because the previous emperor held the same power over her and her family's lives. She loves him a lot, but she also doesn't want to stay I think, there's been too many deaths and Tiansheng isn't really her home anymore, if he wasn't an emperor, it'd be easier, there'd be less obligations.

I'm sure she wants to stay. The girl who loves Ning Yi wants to stay. Yes, she has lost a lot in Tiansheng, but the only person who could make her happy was right there. She would have been willing to go with Ning Yi after Da Yue, had Ning Yi not turned her away (because he was giving up his title, smh). In fact, deep down, she might even wish to be forced to stay so she can have an excuse to be with Ning Yi. This thought has already been presented in multiple ways. By Helian Zheng and by Zhiwei herself.

 

But, because of her conscience she could not do so at the expense of her people. And I understand that. But really, that conversation was dumb. Yes it was dramatic, the words were powerful, and it made for good stage performance, but the logic was out of bounds. Let me put it like this... If I turned off my brain that scene would have been awesome. Otherwise,

it made no sense. They were both Royalty and she knows Ning Yi would never harm her. She should have stood her ground as Empress of Da Cheng and demanded her terms of surrender as that would have been the best for her people. 

 

1 hour ago, skibbies said:

Sobbing to get him to protect her people doesn't really feel like her style. she's too proud. She did negotiate, she did it by sleeping with him. It's why he was so angry with her at the time. He holds it sacred, and he mentioned it in anger but was surprised that she agreed, thought it was a sweet romantic thing, but nope, she used it to negotiate. (and also because she wanted to but still)

Ok. No sobbing, lol. That was actually just an exaggeration because of how stupid I thought that conversation on the bridge was. I am saying she negotiated at the wrong time. She was being somewhat perverse and totally illogical. That time at the bridge would have been the perfect time to negotiate. On the bed with Ning Yi was very bad timing. Did she think he would be happy that she would sleep with him for her people? She was agitating him and smart Zhiwei would have known this. But I guess she must be agitating him on purpose because she was angry he killed Helian Zheng. But then again, was agitating him more important than the safety of her people. Her character has really stooped down to the lowest of levels. Not saying Ning Yi was any better. ~sigh

 

[niniandkun]

1 hour ago, skibbies said:

Re: when the emperor finds out about Zhiwei, when her mum and brother were both determined to keep her alive. Zhiwei figured it out, the emperor is even smarter so he would too. Actually Feng Hao figured it out too so everyone knew.

 

Ah alright. The wine scene makes a bit of sense then as he wants to know their reaction to zhiwei dying. But feng hao also figured it out? How was that apparent? So he was being ironic when he said "see I told you im the most important person in our house" then? I thought it was just him trying to be cheery and poke fun with zhiwei last time before he dies. Its really too bad that I don't know a word of mandarin (except shema and wushema - meaning what and why that I learned from the series). I've next to no exposure to the culture and language otherwise I could've understood more nuance and picked up on implied messages more.

 

1 hour ago, skibbies said:

She did negotiate, she did it by sleeping with him. It's why he was so angry with her at the time. He holds it sacred, and he mentioned it in anger but was surprised that she agreed, thought it was a sweet romantic thing, but nope, she used it to negotiate. (and also because she wanted to but still)

 

If he held it sacred, why did he corner her into saying yes? He should've known that she was desperate to save her dacheng subjects and find the truth about helian zheng whom he personally killed.

[Pollen Ainne]

45 minutes ago, niniandkun said:

looolll!

 

Yup.

 

 

Definitely.  its easy to just notice ningyi's eccentricity in the beginning but its also the emperor's capricious demeanor and layered fear inducing portrayal of authority that gave us a good counter balance and frame of reference into all the prince's insecurities. Those long drawn out beginning to mid episodes apart from capturing details of the plot also gave us an intimate look into most of the prince's fractured mental states and what mechanism they resorted to cope with it. We could actually see why they were on their toes when in came to their father.

 

Right on the dot!! But my gripe with this is that 

1) they didnt even have to make this a tragedy. There's enough serious artsy tragedies but not enough serious, wholesome, non cheesy, deserving happy endings. We've seen many 'titanics' and 'romeo & juliet' esque ill-fated lovers journeys.(even ill-fated non romantic journeys). Why do serious and meaningful stories need to be sad? I don't normally mind tragedies and I can appreciate the romanticism of it but I thought this show had the potential to make a really classic happy ending. Not just bittersweet but a true happy ending. Ni Ni and Chen Kun could've easily pulled it off without making it look contrived or cheesy. Its easy to make this a sad story but with rich characters and good writing/setting in the beginning it would've been a more impressive feat to realistically and intelligently drive the plot to point where our leads battle against the odds, grow as people and finally reap the rewards. I personally think its easy to make tragedies and even without trying a sad story will have that aura of deepness around it unless its so bad its funny. Its hard to pull off a satisfying and memorable happy ending because then it loses that default aura of seriousness, so the story and characters need to be more compelling.

 

2) like you guys said, if they had to, atleast make it a worthwhile tragedy that respects the characters personalities and the journeys they'd been on. The story from jinshi flood onwards should have been executed differently to facilitate this. 

 

 

OMG this was really fun to read! thanks for writing this. BUT FZW stabbing Ning Yi?? And xin ziyan feeding her poison? gosh No No No!!! Ning yi will never forgive ziyan!! Pissed is an understatement. I can't imagine ziyan daring to do that, he knows how much NY cares about her. Maybe lie to her so she'll disappear? i doubt he'd kill.

 

My personal idea of a meaningful tragedy (wish I had your imagination and writing skills to make a scenario :() is where zhiwei and ning yi finally get back on the same page, arent distrustful of each other and resolve their differences. Instead of that jinshi goodbye (there shouldnt have been a goodbye there) this is where she says goodbye for the last time after having a genuine 'moment' with him, maybe even cute dialogue (as tribute to their early days). He understands why she can't stay (politics, guilty conscience, depression, responsibility to remaining dacheng etc) and respects her decision. NY thinks its a permanent goodbye because shes going to travel the world. He is happy that she'll be alive and free. But her plan all along was to kill herself because this life was indeed to much to bear. Cue cliff scene.  NY now thinks he shouldve realized her plan in hindsight but its too late and hes got a mission bla...cannot join her until his duty to his empire is fulfilled. Cue imagining they were together on the cliff scene? Perhaps the "older Ning Yi playing his flute, clutches his heart and falls to his knees" scene you mentioned after?

 

Not bad. This I can get with, although I still wish she doesn't die of suicide.

 

As for the happy ending. I definitely would prefer that. The characters deserved it.

[Pollen Ainne]

13 minutes ago, niniandkun said:

If he held it sacred, why did he corner her into saying yes? He should've known that she was desperate to save her dacheng subjects and find the truth about helian zheng whom he personally killed.

Because Ning Yi lost his sense of rationality in the last 7-8 episodes, that's why. I tell you, the moment he dropped his title, he also dropped his brain. And he never took it back even when he turned emperor.

 

I just have to add this... The Ning Yi and Zhiwei at the start of the show were two impressive smart people despite their ranks, Ning Yi being a prince without power and Zhiwei just an ordinary girl. At the end, Ning Yi was Emperor of Tianshing, Zhiwei was... Princess of Tiansheng, Queen of Jinshi, and Empress of the previous Empire of Cheng, and they suddenly start acting like children!

[skibbies]

36 minutes ago, Pollen Ainne said:

I'm sure she wants to stay. The girl who loves Ning Yi wants to stay. Yes, she has lost a lot in Tiansheng, but the only person who could make her happy was right there. She would have been willing to go with Ning Yi after Da Yue, had Ning Yi not turned her away (because he was giving up his title, smh). In fact, deep down, she might even wish to be forced to stay so she can have an excuse to be with Ning Yi. This thought has already been presented in multiple ways. By Helian Zheng and by Zhiwei herself.

 

But, because of her conscience she could not do so at the expense of her people. And I understand that. But really, that conversation was dumb. Yes it was dramatic, the words were powerful, and it made for good stage performance, but the logic was out of bounds. Let me put it like this... If I turned off my brain that scene would have been awesome. Otherwise,

it made no sense. They were both Royalty and she knows Ning Yi would never harm her. She should have stood her ground as Empress of Da Cheng and demanded her terms of surrender as that would have been the best for her people. 

 

Ok. No sobbing, lol. That was actually just an exaggeration because of how stupid I thought that conversation on the bridge was. I am saying she negotiated at the wrong time. She was being somewhat perverse and totally illogical. That time at the bridge would have been the perfect time to negotiate. On the bed with Ning Yi was very bad timing. Did she think he would be happy that she would sleep with him for her people? She was agitating him and smart Zhiwei would have known this. But I guess she must be agitating him on purpose because she was angry he killed Helian Zheng. But then again, was agitating him more important than the safety of her people. Her character has really stooped down to the lowest of levels. Not saying Ning Yi was any better. ~sigh

 

Ok "doesn't want to stay" is probably wrong choice of word, it's more she doesn't think she should? I don't really like execution of last 7 episodes for so so many reason, too many misunderstandings for sake of misunderstandings. She's not really the empress of Da Cheng though, she doesn't have any power or leverage to demand her terms of surrender. (She had it in the novel, so she did demand them) There's enough bloody pagoda to cause chaos, but not threaten Tiansheng...I think? The drama is super vague about it.

 

She didn't seem to be at the right mindset while at the bridge, her only blood relative just died. Yeah he's just some guy, but blood relatives mattered to them a lot, he's also the straw that broke the camel's back. She's definitely illogicalish in the last few episodes in general, she's just really tired about everything? I feel really tired watching her cry so much. Rip girl. I don't think she slept with him FOR her people per se, I think it's for their relationship. She just used their relationship as leverage for safety of other people? That sounds really bad, oops. It's definitely bad timing there.

 

46 minutes ago, niniandkun said:

 

Ah alright. The wine scene makes a bit of sense then as he wants to know their reaction to zhiwei dying. But feng hao also figured it out? How was that apparent? So he was being ironic when he said "see I told you im the most important person in our house" then? I thought it was just him trying to be cheery and poke fun with zhiwei last time before he dies. Its really too bad that I don't know a word of mandarin (except shema and wushema - meaning what and why that I learned from the series). I've next to no exposure to the culture and language otherwise I could've understood more nuance and picked up on implied messages more.

 

 

If he held it sacred, why did he corner her into saying yes? He should've known that she was desperate to save her dacheng subjects and find the truth about helian zheng whom he personally killed.

When he was dragged out of jail to see the emperor, he screamed something along the lines of "If I'm really the prince of Dacheng, I demand you to release me and I surrender" or something. That's more of a hint and up to interpretation but it's more apparent since he snatched the wine, and then he told his mum and sister that "now you can't leave me in the dark anymore". You could say that's ironic, but he is important as a scapegoat too.

 

I think he was desperate. To keep her close, to have some kind of tangible connection to her and what not. I say he holds it sacred because he was surprised she said yes, and then angry. They were just completely out of sync the last few episodes tbh.