[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Rise of Phoenixes 凰权·弈天下

[niniandkun]

@Pollen Ainne Hold up! So a Mary Sue only happens in fanfiction?? I feel like such an idiot, i just looked up Mary Sue and found the fanfiction connection.

I didn't know there was a concept of a good mary sue and a bad one. Or that it mostly refers to a 'self-insert' character. No wonder all the varying types of characters described as Mary Sues

By this definition in original fiction it describes a character that doesn't fit in with the storyverse? Maybe a character who is noticeably  favoured by the God of the universe (a.k.a the writer). Sort of like a parent gushing over their kid saying theirs is the best but you can clearly see the bias.

 

I thought it was just a particular type of character usually written by those who can't write 3D female characters. In order to make the character 'strong' they unnaturally overpower her to the point where she has few flaws, is usually right, everybody loves them but still comes across as a caricature but atleast shes "strong" now. Like the story keeps telling you shes the best but you're not convinced.

 

And thanks for that bit about me imagining romancing Nanyi. I actually blushed reading that. LOOL

 

[skibbies]

A mary sue to me is likely a self insert, a character who seems overly perfect, or amazing, or lucky, without adequate writing to support it. People does seem like to lob it at female characters they don't like a lot, which is pretty unfair. Female characters are generally judged more harshly too. Sometimes extraordinary characters goes through a lot, you accept that's the story it wants to tell and just leave it yknow. I mean, no one calls Zhuge Liang Gary Stu/Jack Sue. c!net absorbed the term but use it really broadly, I'm not entirely sure they understand what the term means.

 

The novel Zhiwei gets the rep for having multiple love interest, having a super pretty face but hide it with an ugly one, and generally over powered since she's like 16, she went to school and was prepped to revive kingdom, became imperial advisor (to save her own richard simmons in a pinch), is pretty good at martial arts (thanks to Mum + a special book), later was a pretty good general at 18, and became a Queen in her 20s. She wasn't perfect, she had flaws and made mistakes. Aside from the harem, I don't think the other are really sueish because the writing made it believable enough? and since she's awesome, I can buy that multiple people would be attracted to her you know. As for drama Zhiwei, she is deeply flawed, the only thing I can think of that might sue-ish is she got involved in dangerous power play and survived early on. I think it's the novel rep carrying over, mostly.

[niniandkun]

38 minutes ago, skibbies said:

A mary sue to me is likely a self insert, a character who seems overly perfect, or amazing, or lucky, without adequate writing to support it. People does seem like to lob it at female characters they don't like a lot, which is pretty unfair. Female characters are generally judged more harshly too. Sometimes extraordinary characters goes through a lot, you accept that's the story it wants to tell and just leave it yknow. I mean, no one calls Zhuge Liang Gary Stu/Jack Sue. c!net absorbed the term but use it really broadly, I'm not entirely sure they understand what the term means.

 

The novel Zhiwei gets the rep for having multiple love interest, having a super pretty face but hide it with an ugly one, and generally over powered since she's like 16, she went to school and was prepped to revive kingdom, became imperial advisor (to save her own richard simmons in a pinch), is pretty good at martial arts (thanks to Mum + a special book), later was a pretty good general at 18, and became a Queen in her 20s. She wasn't perfect, she had flaws and made mistakes. Aside from the harem, I don't think the other are really sueish because the writing made it believable enough? and since she's awesome, I can buy that multiple people would be attracted to her you know. As for drama Zhiwei, she is deeply flawed, the only thing I can think of that might sue-ish is she got involved in dangerous power play and survived early on. I think it's the novel rep carrying over, mostly.

 

So we're pretty much all on the same page. And RIGHT?? It is always females who get judged more harshly. I hate to admit but I'm guilty of it too. It irks me more when female characters display these traits. Maybe I take it personally because I think it reflects badly on me. Part of it is probably cultural conditioning too. But it is unfair that so many female characters are now easily dismissed as Mary Sues. Argh...I ought to start pointing out more Gary Stus now.

On one hand reviewers can't wait to slap on the Mary Sue tag on any leading female character and on the other side there's a lot of lazy writers who don't know how to write strong females who aren't masculine/aggressive or know it alls. 

 

Havn't read the novel but from this description it still doesn't warrant a Mary Sue tag IMO. Of course the novel is about an extraordinary protagonist like many stories are. How many extraordinary "the chosen one" type stories are there about men? No one blinks an eye.

[Pollen Ainne]

10 hours ago, niniandkun said:

@Pollen Ainne Hold up! So a Mary Sue only happens in fanfiction??

Uhm no. If you create an original story with a self-insert such is a still a Mary Sue. Like my first example, if you write a story of yourself and your favorite idol being in a romance, you are still creating a Mary Sue character, unless of course you are so good a writer to convince us otherwise.

 

10 hours ago, niniandkun said:

By this definition in original fiction it describes a character that doesn't fit in with the storyverse? Maybe a character who is noticeably  favoured by the God of the universe (a.k.a the writer). Sort of like a parent gushing over their kid saying theirs is the best but you can clearly see the bias.

Ok I should have read your entire post first. lol. But yeah, it is something like that. She still fits in the story though because the entire universe is made for her to shine. And it's glaringly obvious.

 

10 hours ago, niniandkun said:

I thought it was just a particular type of character usually written by those who can't write 3D female characters. In order to make the character 'strong' they unnaturally overpower her to the point where she has few flaws, is usually right, everybody loves them but still comes across as a caricature but atleast shes "strong" now. Like the story keeps telling you shes the best but you're not convinced.

Unfortunately, the term has been loosely thrown around a lot. But those things that you mentioned are usually the reasons why people would think you created a self-insert. If you look around for definitions of Mary Sue, you usually see a lot of reasons why a person would think a character is a Mary Sue. Those reasons are actually the things that can make people believe you have created a self-insert. Because otherwise, as I previously stated, you can actually create a good Mary Sue and not have people find out. Although you can also create an obvious Mary Sue that people like... or a Gary Stu... (I am looking at you Kirito of SAO that has so much fanbase, ugh)

 

But even if you have those elements, if for some reason, the character is still not believable as a self-insert, she still isn't a Mary Sue. You find Mary Sues a lot in fanfictions, because most fanfiction writers are amateurs.

 

Now if the script writer of tRoP actually wrote tRoP by self-inserting herself as Zhiwei, then yeah, Zhiwei is a Mary Sue. However, if you didn't even think that, then there is no point in thinking that she is. So it is the relationship between the character, writer, and story. Did you once think that the writer was just portraying her own fantasies by being the main character in this story? No? Then she isn't a Mary Sue. 

 

A badly written character doesn't mean she is a Mary Sue. A character written for an agenda (Namely you Rey of Star Wars) doesn't mean she is a Mary Sue, despite everyone hating her and shouting that she is so.

 

Usually, it is people who have no interest in writing and just hear the word Mary Sue from others that misuses the label. Mostly, drama/movie watchers with no interest in books. Sorry... not saying that all book readers know of it's real meaning. But writers should know exactly what a Mary Sue is, and thus stepping away from a character that you have written is as much an important step in writing as stepping into it.

 

10 hours ago, skibbies said:

The novel Zhiwei gets the rep for having multiple love interest, having a super pretty face but hide it with an ugly one, and generally over powered since she's like 16, she went to school and was prepped to revive kingdom, became imperial advisor (to save her own richard simmons in a pinch), is pretty good at martial arts (thanks to Mum + a special book), later was a pretty good general at 18, and became a Queen in her 20s. She wasn't perfect, she had flaws and made mistakes. Aside from the harem, I don't think the other are really sueish because the writing made it believable enough? and since she's awesome, I can buy that multiple people would be attracted to her you know. As for drama Zhiwei, she is deeply flawed, the only thing I can think of that might sue-ish is she got involved in dangerous power play and survived early on. I think it's the novel rep carrying over, mostly.

Thanks for more insight on the novel. When I heard people mention she is Mary Sueish in the novel, I actually kinda believed it because of the things she has accomplished and I have no context whatsoever since I didn't read it. It is kinda not hard to believe. But I think I have mentioned this several pages before, no matter how overpowered she is, if the writer manages to convince me that she is a character and not a self-insert, then she is not a Mary Sue, to me at least. lol

 

9 hours ago, niniandkun said:

So we're pretty much all on the same page. And RIGHT?? It is always females who get judged more harshly. I hate to admit but I'm guilty of it too. It irks me more when female characters display these traits. Maybe I take it personally because I think it reflects badly on me. Part of it is probably cultural conditioning too. But it is unfair that so many female characters are now easily dismissed as Mary Sues. Argh...I ought to start pointing out more Gary Stus now.

On one hand reviewers can't wait to slap on the Mary Sue tag on any leading female character and on the other side there's a lot of lazy writers who don't know how to write strong females who aren't masculine/aggressive or know it alls. 

 

Havn't read the novel but from this description it still doesn't warrant a Mary Sue tag IMO. Of course the novel is about an extraordinary protagonist like many stories are. How many extraordinary "the chosen one" type stories are there about men? No one blinks an eye.

Actually Gary Stus are thrown around a lot too. In the fanfiction world, there are so many of them around (not as much as Mary Sues though). But... let us be honest, there are really more Mary Sues than Gary Stus. The reason being is that, let us face it, we women are more prone to fantasize than men. It is the honest truth. And by saying this, I am not including the tons of harem stories and ecchi manga and anime that are created for male fantasies but not necessarily the author's. 

 

I really despise Mary Sues. We all have our own fantasies, but writing your fantasy and declaring it as a "character" worthy for other's to read about is despicable to me. If you want to write a fantasy about yourself, might as well label it as such and not hide it as a different character. But my advice, don't even write it. Just keep it in your head. lol

 

Edit: Seems us females, usually spot Mary Sue's more easily than Gary Stus. So I might be wrong about Gary Stus being not as many. I just discussed it with my brother just now and he was able to mention a lot of Gary Stus than Mary Sues and he says a lot of Mary Sues are pretty cool. And I actually find the Gary Stus he mentioned to be pretty good characters. So... I guess we are just more judgmental to our own gender.

 

Btw, I have to reiterate... fantastical... sometimes I forget to include that term... but it has to be a fantasy of yourself and not really yourself...

[niniandkun]

14 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

Ok I should have read your entire post first. lol. But yeah, it is something like that. She still fits in the story though because the entire universe is made for her to shine. And it's glaringly obvious.

I was writing directly from my train of thought. Should've edited it lol.

 

14 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

Now if the script writer of tRoP actually wrote tRoP by self-inserting herself as Zhiwei, then yeah, Zhiwei is a Mary Sue. However, if you didn't even think that, then there is no point in thinking that she is. So it is the relationship between the character, writer, and story. Did you once think that the writer was just portraying her own fantasies by being the main character in this story? No? Then she isn't a Mary Sue. 

So its a self insert that betrays itself. Consider me educated

 

15 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

Usually, it is people who have no interest in writing and just hear the word Mary Sue from others that misuses the label.

Yeah that includes me haha. I mostly picked it up from the reviewer/critic crowd and thought I understood what it meant from the contexts they used it in but only now do I really get it. Ah better late than never. And I can't stand most fanfiction. Even though I'm open to it I usually can't make it through because the characters seem different from the original story. They don't even have to be Mary sues even slight changes to the essence of the characters puts me off. I like my characters to be consistent and changes ought to be in a gradient brought about by circumstance. The bigger the change the longer you have to walk me through it. Looking at you Zhiwei and NingYi from the last few episodes.

 

 

[tendrilsofwind]

I feel like tRoP is more magical realism than fantasy. All the magical elements are nonchalantly thrown in and are more rooted in cultural beliefs than straight up fantasy. Check out One Hundred Years of Solitude or anything else by Marquez (or Borges) for some really outstanding examples and beautiful prose. The English and Chinese translations for both authors happen to have been done exceptionally well, although it is likely to pale in comparison to the original Spanish.

 

Also I am so happy everyone here disagrees with all those people calling FZW a Mary Sue. I was really annoyed reading all those comments when the show was airing. Those same people never call guys Gary Stus despite their abundance. All the things they criticized FZW for could also have been applied to Wang Kai's character in NiF. 

[Pollen Ainne]

8 hours ago, niniandkun said:

Yeah that includes me haha. I mostly picked it up from the reviewer/critic crowd and thought I understood what it meant from the contexts they used it in but only now do I really get it. Ah better late than never. And I can't stand most fanfiction. Even though I'm open to it I usually can't make it through because the characters seem different from the original story. They don't even have to be Mary sues even slight changes to the essence of the characters puts me off. I like my characters to be consistent and changes ought to be in a gradient brought about by circumstance. The bigger the change the longer you have to walk me through it. Looking at you Zhiwei and NingYi from the last few episodes.

 

 

Same, although I am more forgiving of Mary Sues in fan fiction as writers are mostly amateurs. But definitely not in published books. But you are right with the change in character. I hate it. When the character doesn't feel the same to me anymore, I drop it. Although some purposely go OOC just so they can push the characters in the scenario of their fantasy and wisely label their fiction as so. So I just read it out of curiosity. There are some gems in fan fiction.

 

Although I think writing a tRoP fan fiction seems harder than most. One because of the conclusive ending, two because it is not easy to write schemes and Ning Yi's character is completely based on it. I feel like tackling a fan fiction of tRoP can only bring disappointment... sigh~

[morganian]

On 11/20/2018 at 4:17 PM, raziela said:

The director really should have reigned him in a bit more. I felt like Chen kun would frequently make his scenes a lot more overwrought than needed. He was always acting with a capital 'A' even in scenes where it wasn't necessary.  Then for the really emotional scenes he would dial the performance up even further to 11.  It was just too much and diminished any real emotional impact. 

I loved Chen Kun as Ning Yi. If I had issues with NiNi or Chen Kun's characterisations in this series, I don't think I would have finished watching all 80 eps.

 

However, I am not a Mandarin speaker and sometimes I wonder if I needed Chen Kun and NiNi's facial expressions and tone of voice to put some colour into all of those subtitles. In other words, is Chen Kun's expressiveness/'overacting' more off-putting to native speakers and more enjoyable for subtitle-dependent viewers? It would partly explain the mixed reception between the original audience in China and the international Netflix audience (aside from the shorter episode run, bad local publicity and anti-Chen-Kun-NiNi sentiment).

 

Sorry about switching back to an old topic and not Mary Sue stuff. Have been away...

[skibbies]

That's really hard to say tbh? It's a pretty personal opinion. All the things you mentioned and more (expectation for example) factor in how people view the drama and actor's performance, it's very hard to separate them. Besides, the Chinese audience is a bigger and wider pool and have more older cdramas and actors older performance/look to compare with, so they are harsher on cdramas in general. Almost all cdramas get more criticism on c!net, the ones that don't are the untranslated dramas that would have an international audience. (ok NiF is an exception but it still gets more criticisms comparatively, for a) Mei Changsu being Gary Stu/win too easily. but he had lot of prepping. b) the schemes were too simple. but schemes weren't quite the focus there, it was more about ideals, schemes was a mean to the end c) the characters are pretty black and white, because it's again, pretty idealistic story. )

[Pollen Ainne]

I don't know... actors overacting in general are off-putting to me as well. I think it all goes down to characterization and individual perception? The way I saw it, the one overacting was not Chen Kun but Ning Yi... I just so happened to get intrigued by the type of character Ning Yi was instead of repelled by it. So basically, Chen Kun just made a character that was overly dramatic at times and it all depends on the viewer if the character appealed to them or not. I don't think i would have judged it differently had it been an English drama... at least I don't think so...

 

I don't think that most viewers disinterest had something to do with Ning Yi's character tho... I think it's mostly with the story pacing... for some reason, even for people who like the show, people find the pacing at the beginning really slow... I really loved the pacing however...

[niniandkun]

On 11/24/2018 at 3:45 AM, Pollen Ainne said:

Although I think writing a tRoP fan fiction seems harder than most. One because of the conclusive ending, two because it is not easy to write schemes and Ning Yi's character is completely based on it. I feel like tackling a fan fiction of tRoP can only bring disappointment... sigh~

Also shouldn't drama fanfic be in drama format? who knows that might become a thing with youtube and easy home production. Buahahaa....next level cringe

 

23 hours ago, morganian said:

I wonder if I needed Chen Kun and NiNi's facial expressions and tone of voice to put some colour into all of those subtitles. In other words, is Chen Kun's expressiveness/'overacting' more off-putting to native speakers and more enjoyable for subtitle-dependent viewers?

You know I've had the opposite experience. I can tolerate bland acting better when there's subtitles because it feels less boring when I'm switching from their faces to reading. I remember with tRop I had to rewind a couple of scenes cuz there was so much happening on his (NingYi) face and I wanted to catch all of it.

[Pollen Ainne]

1 hour ago, niniandkun said:

Also shouldn't drama fanfic be in drama format? who knows that might become a thing with youtube and easy home production. Buahahaa....next level cringe

 

You know I've had the opposite experience. I can tolerate bland acting better when there's subtitles because it feels less boring when I'm switching from their faces to reading. I remember with tRop I had to rewind a couple of scenes cuz there was so much happening on his (NingYi) face and I wanted to catch all of it.

LOL! I remember all the Naruto cosplay drama fights I see on youtube... no please...

 

And I feel you there with Ning Yi's expression. His face definitely tell a story by itself. lol It definitely so much better to watch the second and third time around because you already know what is happening and doesn't have to read as much.

[whisper1]

On 11/24/2018 at 1:26 PM, Pollen Ainne said:

I don't know... actors overacting in general are off-putting to me as well. I think it all goes down to characterization and individual perception? The way I saw it, the one overacting was not Chen Kun but Ning Yi... I just so happened to get intrigued by the type of character Ning Yi was instead of repelled by it. So basically, Chen Kun just made a character that was overly dramatic at times and it all depends on the viewer if the character appealed to them or not. I don't think i would have judged it differently had it been an English drama... at least I don't think so...

 

I don't think that most viewers disinterest had something to do with Ning Yi's character tho... I think it's mostly with the story pacing... for some reason, even for people who like the show, people find the pacing at the beginning really slow... I really loved the pacing however...

I agree, the character NY is overacting, and in doing so he succeeds  in becoming the thorn in his brother's  sides. His father gets it, example " the joke" is no joke, but the Emperor  laughs out loud furthering the threat to the Crown Prince while covering for NY. JMO that puppy dog expression is priceless as it changes when the assembled  brothers and officials turn on each other playing the blame game.

 

As for the pacing... I  am used to western fare when action is often inserted for little or no reason other than to keep eyeballs amused. It took me a while to come down off the action sugar high and appreciate the pace of RotP. Slowing my brain down so that I  could absorb the fine dialogue and small details is one of the reasons I can't  move on. This drama is imersive and my enjoyment has intensified once I  gave myself permission to let go and get wet. 

 

I don't  know much about the Mary Sue discussion. I usually equate it with the damsel  in distress type. My thoughts are that these leads don't  fall into that catagory. Much of the action and dialogue goes against the predictable. I loved FW admitting that she wasn't  the sweet, altruistic  female, and that she would (in other words) burn down the world " for him". My kind of female, lol.

[Pollen Ainne]

29 minutes ago, whisper1 said:

I loved FW admitting that she wasn't  the sweet, altruistic  female, and that she would (in other words) burn down the world " for him". My kind of female, lol.

My favorite line in the movie. Too bad she was too controlled to actually give in. I would have loved to see that!

[storyofthestone]

Ok yikes, guys- I had to make an account here to discuss this show because no one I know has seen this and I am pretty sure no one I know will want to watch 70 episodes. This is the first Asian drama I've watched as an adult. I grew up watching Chinese dramas with my parents but basically have only watched television produced in the West for the past fifteen years. But I saw this on Netflix and was intrigued by how beautiful and textured it looked. 

 

Slightly ashamed to admit that I'm on episode 48 (after 5 days of binge watching and being incredibly sleep deprived) and am honestly kind of terrified to watch any further. I completely spoiled myself reading comments and watching the behind the scenes clips, so even during the utterly sweet scenes of open affection between Ning Yi and Zhi Wei, a dark cloud hangs over it all. I'm already emotionally exhausted- and I haven't even gotten to the rupture between Ning Yi and Zhi Wei. But damn, after Zhi Wei was imprisoned and that scene with her mom bringing her food... I literally ugly-cried my eyebrow makeup off. And the argument between Xin Ziyan and Ning Yi right before he goes to Minhai about with ZiYan interrogating the prince about his commitment to his dreams of empire- such a tour-de-force scene. I cried then too. Now, like Pavlov's dog, I can't help but tear up when I hear any of the music from the show. Loved Zhu Yin's character so much and hated that she was killed off. Her big sister relationship with Zhi Wei. Her comrade in arms kind of bond with Ning Yi. 

 

These characters and their relationships with each other are so rich and layered and I am so invested in everyone, including the villains. Like when consort Chang went to the emperor to plead for the life of her kids and how grateful she was that she would be buried in the royal tombs. Damn, cue more waterworks. HOW IS EVERYONE IN THIS SHOW SO GOOD AT ACTING. And the characterization of the princess Shaoning was so finely done and really complicated the trope of the bratty princess. I loved when she was discussing with Zhi Wei how royal children were forced to fight for the love of their father, never taking it for granted as commoners do, showing how delusional and pitiful she is in some ways yet unflinchingly honest in others, how insular, lonely, and dangerous her world is (and by extension, Ning Yi's world and all the princes). These royal children may gain allies and political backers, but can they have true friends? True family other than their mothers? And the way she told that story about how the crown prince killed someone's cat to make her feel better about her pet bird dying- she really believed it to be a purely heartwarming story about his undeniable worth. Just a revealing and twisted moment of characterization there- here's someone who lacks so much empathy and is so self-involved yet holds her affection for her older brother so deeply.

 

So many amazing moments to turn over in one's head. 

[niniandkun]

7 hours ago, storyofthestone said:

 I literally ugly-cried my eyebrow makeup off.

Thats funny....made me think you cried upside down.

 

8 hours ago, storyofthestone said:

Loved Zhu Yin's character so much and hated that she was killed off. Her big sister relationship with Zhi Wei. Her comrade in arms kind of bond with Ning Yi. 

Man I loved Zhu Yin. I often think of her and Zhiwei together but I'm now reminded how close she and NingYi were too. It was nice seeing a true platonic male-female friendship in a period drama. There was no hint of 'shipping' or friendzoning. It also gives you a reference for how NY is with other women vs Zhi Wei. And I like a guy who can be just friends with a woman.

Hers was the first death that hit deep. More than I expected. I wish she lived longer for our lead's sake but her death made the fight more real. I wouldn't have hated the Changs as much if it weren't for this.

I guess Hua Qiong was supposed to be our consolation but since her scenes were butchered I didn't really feel for her as much as Zhu Yin. I wonder how I might've felt about her if we got to see more of her. I think we were supposed to since she's more prominent in the promos.

 

9 hours ago, storyofthestone said:

Slightly ashamed to admit that I'm on episode 48 (after 5 days of binge watching and being incredibly sleep deprived) and am honestly kind of terrified to watch any further

I miss those days. I binged upto episode 60 no spoilers. If I started watching a week later I could've seen all 70 in one go but netflix was still uploading so I had to wait a week for the last 10. Was in a haze the whole week... I was sad but it was a beautiful sadness. Keep at it, Jiayou! (cue the cringe..)

[Pollen Ainne]

15 hours ago, storyofthestone said:

These characters and their relationships with each other are so rich and layered and I am so invested in everyone, including the villains.

Yes! I would say characterization is really the driving force of this show. Whether you can empathize with the character or not, whether you like or dislike them, they are all characters with their own goals and motivations. The villains aren't there just to give the leads problems. They have their own story to tell. They all have problems and hardships and dreams. I can write a whole page essay of each and single one of the characters in the show (some might require 3-5 pages, lol). They have depth.

 

5 hours ago, niniandkun said:

It was nice seeing a true platonic male-female friendship in a period drama. There was no hint of 'shipping' or friendzoning. It also gives you a reference for how NY is with other women vs Zhi Wei. And I like a guy who can be just friends with a woman.

And there you just added more depth to the characters that I didn't really think about. I think the characters and their interactions with each other are so rich that a single brain is not enough to comprehend everything. There is just so much there.

[storyofthestone]

I just watched episode 58 and I don't understand why Zhiwei seemed to accuse Ning Yi of abandoning her in her worst moments. I mean, he tried... Did she not know that he basically threatened his father with a revolt to try to get them out of there alive, thereby putting himself on the emperor's no-longer-to-be-trusted list? 

 

Also, what was she hoping he would say to her? Did she suspect that Ning Yi was sent there to carry out orders for the emperor and was hoping he would tell her of his plans? So that she could be prepared to act instead of be at the mercy of the emperor again? Or was she hoping for something more personal? 

 

Am I just expecting too much logic from the scriptwriters who wrote this angry grieving lashing out Zhiwei? This is all overwhelmingly frustrating and painful to watch. Seeing her clutch that hair ornament, jfc...

Edited November 27, 2018 by storyofthestone

[Pollen Ainne]

3 hours ago, storyofthestone said:

I just watched episode 58 and I don't understand why Zhiwei seemed to accuse Ning Yi of abandoning her in her worst moments. I mean, he tried... Did she not know that he basically threatened his father with a revolt to try to get them out of there alive, thereby putting himself on the emperor's no-longer-to-be-trusted list? 

 

Also, what was she hoping he would say to her? Did she suspect that Ning Yi was sent there to carry out orders for the emperor and was hoping he would tell her of his plans? So that she could be prepared to act instead of be at the mercy of the emperor again? Or was she hoping for something more personal? 

 

Am I just expecting too much logic from the scriptwriters who wrote this angry grieving lashing out Zhiwei? This is all overwhelmingly frustrating and painful to watch. Seeing her clutch that hair ornament, jfc...

Well I guess Zhiwei was just being a girl in love. I didn't like that she said that too, it kinda irritated me, as after all, she did make a vow. I mean what else did she expect? She wanted him to stay away right? I'm pretty sure she knew about what Ning Yi did, why else would he be there instead of still being in Minhai to take care of things? But he wasn't there when she couldn't even eat or sleep. At that moment when she felt lost, it was Helian Zheng that woke her up and made her smile. Still, I got irritated because, she should have understood that Helian Zheng at that time was unaffected by everything so he had the luxury of making others smile. Ning Yi on the other hand had also lost the woman he loved (with her saying that painful vow in front of him), so he deserved a time to sulk as well... but maybe she was just clutching at ways to let go of him, the vow cannot be undone after all... I don't know if it is at this same episode, but it was pretty obvious how much she loved him... the more one loves, the easier they get hurt... the more irrational too I guess...

[storyofthestone]

20 hours ago, niniandkun said:

Thats funny....made me think you cried upside down.

 

Man I loved Zhu Yin. I often think of her and Zhiwei together but I'm now reminded how close she and NingYi were too. It was nice seeing a true platonic male-female friendship in a period drama. There was no hint of 'shipping' or friendzoning. It also gives you a reference for how NY is with other women vs Zhi Wei. And I like a guy who can be just friends with a woman.

 

No upside down crying, just a lot of face mopping.

 

Really well put re: Ning Yi and Zhu Yin's platonic friendship.

 

Just finished 63 and I am all out of emotional reserves. I must be a masochist. My eyelids are raw and my chest hurts. I am going to Italy in a couple days and I am not going to watch the rest until I get home so this show doesn't ruin my vacation. It still kinda might. All I want to do is talk about this show. Apologies if I am incoherent or way too intense, I literally just finished five minutes ago.

 

Ning Yi telling Zhi Wei they had missed their chance to be together? And when he was talking to Jin Siyu (hated that dude so much) while drugged he said that he was rescuing Zhiwei out of guilt. GUILT. Not love? It just doesn't sound like him. The two of them have both lost so much faith in each other. I miss their nose nuzzling and even their wrist biting days.

 

I was so confused by the whole memory loss thing. Can a kind soul explain what that was all about? Did she stop taking the medicine spiked with the azalea powder and instead take something else that Ning Yi concocted from Nanyi's medical manual to keep Jin Siyu from getting suspicious? Why not just pretend she was under the influence? Why was it necessary for the story that she actually be drugged? That terrible terrible scene when she told Ning Yi he was a bad man and then remembered all those bits and pieces from their beautiful times together while NOSE NUZZLING and crying in the arms of Jin Siyu!?? It made me feel a little nauseous. It felt like such a violation of Zhiwei. Such intimate words and actions pulled out of her in front of this gross rapey villain. When she started weeping with joy because she thought she had married the one she loved, I wanted to throw my computer across the room.

 

I didn't even really enjoy their underwater kiss. It felt unearned at that point.

 

I do not like how much agency Zhiwei has lost since she was revealed to be a woman. The Minhai arc was truly glorious for shippy reasons but Zhiwei basically did very little pertaining to her actual job. I get that this is probably due to the censorship edits. It's infuriating that so much time, artistry, and money was clearly put into making this show and it had to be butchered just so it could air.