[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Rise of Phoenixes 凰权·弈天下

[whisper1]

11 hours ago, niniandkun said:

 

 

 

Ah thats an interesting thought. Is it really because of Zong Chen alone tho? I thought Zong saved him from some other tragic background story and gave him a life by looking after and training him. Really don't know much about Gu Nanyi's background in the drama to judge. I assumed his social ineptness was because of that trauma ( whatever caused him to lose his family) and maybe slight neuro-atypical traits. Hadn't thought about it being caused by Zong's upbringing. I guess it is possible.

Zong's not a hero by any means. Even though initially he's presented as Zhiwei's teacher and good friend of Qiu Mingying who helps a lot we later find that its all for the cause. Hard to know if he had a heart or not. Can only judge with people unrelated to the cause because he'll do anything to help or hurt someone for Dacheng. I still find it super shady that he kept the knowledge of the 4th prince from Zhiwei. I thought he cared about her more being her teacher and spending time with her but at the end I'm not so sure. We'll only know the truth of that if he had to choose between the 4th prince and her.

Except for that line he told Gu Nanyi "protect zhiwei" when he died made me think he realized prince might hurt her. 

As for how he treated Gu Nanyi, from Nanyi's perspective it seemed like he did alright but maybe thats cuz he's naive. Through a modern lens Zong had the responsibility of a parent after adopting nanyi and he definitely didn't treat him like a son but for that time, he was just a teacher/leader who essentially recruited Nanyi to be a soldier. Gave him a purpose and saved him from some other gruesome fate. Think his family was also involved with the bloody pagoda? idk someone else needs to clarify.

 

But you're right in that for someone who raised a person, he didn't give a damn about Gu Nanyi. Forget Zhiwei, he should've cared about Nanyi more but he just used him. Aww its so sweet of you to care about him in the midst of other louder characters.

 

I have selfish motives when it comes to the rich cast of characters in RotP.  They provide the viewer with a lot to chew on, and I  can be like a dog with a bone, only satisfied when I've  exhausted  myself,lol. I greatly appreciate the discussion.

 

Why is his name GU Nanyi? Could he be the lost son of Chief Gu? Or why does he have the same birthmark as FengZhiwei?  Just wondering...

 

We first meet GN as this wuxia warrior, the strong silent type, a stone cold killer if ordered ,  thorny. When FengZhiwei  lifts his hat his face looks angelic, innocent, almost fragile, childlike, true dichotomy. Screen time well spent.

 

This may be a question of nature or nurture. 

I will give Master Zong credit for a few things, he recognized a talent  successfully training him to be a terminator, and to read and write. He provided housing.

 

GN admits to FW he doesn't  or didn't  have a home, no concept of friend. All his personal and intra personal growth seems to come via FengZhiwei's nurturing. Nanyi doesn't  even know what tears are until he is overwhelmed with motion as FengZhiwei  cries on his shoulder. JMT a beautiful growth of a character without beating the audience to death. The same goes for the scene with Mama Yale, wonderful stuff. GuNanyi  takes important baby steps toward becoming a complete person...a doctor? A husband? No longer limited to existing  as Zong's  robotic killing machine.

 

Back to Mama Qui. Anyone think she was motivated by a good bit of resentment toward FengZhiwei for surviving while her own child was sacrificed? 

[alittlemei]

On 12/1/2018 at 9:00 AM, troptina said:

Hi Everyone, I joined just to be able to follow this forum!  Like all of you, I'm also a HUGE fan of TROP!  I've probably rewatched the series at least several times!  I know there are big differences between the drama and novel, but can some of you help me understand how you figured out whether FZW is really the remnant or not?  I was confused with the flashback that showed Gu Hen with 2 infant boys and presumably a girl wrapped in the yellow blanket.  I thought Mama Gu gave birth to twin boys.  So does this mean that either Mama Gu isn't really her birth mom or that she's not the real remnant?  I also heard that Feng Hao isn't really her brother.  Can someone help me with this confusion?  And also to clarify the differences in her identity in the drama vs novel?  Thanks so much!

 

I was confused about this too.

why is there a birth certificate for the ninth prince? Was that faked to protect FZW? And why does FH has a birth mark too? Was it also fake to act as a cover?

 

why did everyone says it’s a prince but ended up a princess? 

[alittlemei]

I feel that FZW mum is selfish because she decided her fate for her by making her swear on something that makes no sense. NY didn’t kill her husband. It was crown prince. And NY saved FZW so many times. She’s ungrateful. 

 

She is also manipulated by Zong to have FZW become an official in order to overturn the empire. FZW already want to let go of the past but Zong kept urging her on. And that brother part is so annoying. It’s not convincing.

 

Its gaining popularity worldwide. If there is a season 2, I feel like it can be continued with GN saving FZW from the cliff. And maybe hide her away from the royalty. 

 

NY can marry Secretary Yao daughter as part of the storyline to further his bloodline. Perhaps later in the story, he met FZW again.

 

I feel like there’s so many back story missing. Like GN background? Where did he come from? Who is he? I’m very curious.

 

I also don’t know why they killed off Hui Qiong. She’s a good pair up with FZW because they are similar in character. 

 

I wished that Helian died off earlier in the show. 

Does that mean that even though FZW married him, they were never together like a couple? 

[alittlemei]

Why does the emperor lock NY up for 8 years but appears to be more lenient towards other sons who attempted to kill him? Like NS was let out of the prison after a short while but unfortunately he died. 

[skibbies]

 

On 12/3/2018 at 8:33 AM, whisper1 said:

Why is his name GU Nanyi? Could he be the lost son of Chief Gu? Or why does he have the same birthmark as FengZhiwei?  Just wondering...

He's Gu Yan's son in the novel but they aren't related in the drama. At the beginning of episode 23, Gu Yan was kneeling in front of his wife and child's plague, I think, so they have no relations in the drama. It's just a shared last name, Gu isn't super unusual. I don't remember him having the same birth mark?

 

On 12/3/2018 at 9:19 AM, alittlemei said:

why is there a birth certificate for the ninth prince? Was that faked to protect FZW? And why does FH has a birth mark too? Was it also fake to act as a cover?

 

why did everyone says it’s a prince but ended up a princess? 

Both faked, and used as "evidence" when discovered. As for why a prince, because it's easier to hide a child when you misgender them, also because a prince is easier to gather remnants as hope to restore the lost kingdom, than a princess.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 9:30 AM, alittlemei said:

I feel that FZW mum is selfish because she decided her fate for her by making her swear on something that makes no sense. NY didn’t kill her husband. It was crown prince. And NY saved FZW so many times. She’s ungrateful. 

 

Does that mean that even though FZW married him, they were never together like a couple? 

No one knows what happened that night. Ning Yi could have helped Crown Prince killed Gu Heng. The audience knows he didn't, but Qiu Mingying doesn't. Ning Yi did solicited Gu Yan to be a traitor, however. Marriage is between two families, especially in those times and especially if it's to royal family. Considering Zhiwei's identity, there's high chance that she'd end up unhappy or dead. Ning Yi at the time was an unfavoured prince who just got released from prison with very little power, who may get pulled into power struggle that usually end up with him and families tied to him died, which even under other circumstances isn't a great match. I'm not sure if Qiu Mingying knows Ning Yi saved Zhiwei afterwards? It's very unclear how good the information network Zong Chen had access to, and even if he had good amount of info, it doesn't necessarily means Mama Qiu gets in the know, so I wouldn't call her ungrateful at all. She's just working with very different set of information and values.

 

Zhiwei doesn't like Helian Zheng romantically, he knows that, it's made clear repeatedly. They married because there wasn't any other choice presented to her.

19 hours ago, alittlemei said:

Why does the emperor lock NY up for 8 years but appears to be more lenient towards other sons who attempted to kill him? Like NS was let out of the prison after a short while but unfortunately he died. 

Ning Yan died. Ning Chuan was stripped his Crown Prince title, imprisoned then died. Ning Qi was imprisoned and went crazy. Ning Sheng was stripped his prince position (making him a commoner and can't be buried in the royal tombs or recorded as a prince) and imprisoned. He almost got killed but both Ning Qi and Shaoning begged to keep him alive AND his mother requested to die in his place. That's not lenient at all. I think he might have requested a place to study buddhism and that's where he stays, it could be a very nice prison too. Narrative-wise, he's mostly let out to round off a plot thread and up Ning Qi's kill count I guess? Ning Qi's last scene looks like House of Lanxiang, idk what's up with that, but it's not as desolate as where Ning Chuan was staying. Ning Yi kept his Prince of Chu title while imprisoned. (I still have no idea how he kept that...it should have been stripped.. )

[niniandkun]

11 hours ago, alittlemei said:

Why does the emperor lock NY up for 8 years but appears to be more lenient towards other sons who attempted to kill him? Like NS was let out of the prison after a short while but unfortunately he died. 

I wondered this too. I'm guessing he became more lenient as he got older and that prophecy (one that stated all his children will die) was dawning on him.

EDIT: Just read @skibbies answer. I suppose its not lenient in that regard.

RE:

Yes, birth certificate was faked along with the birth mark to act as cover.

Everyone said prince because thats the natural expectation especially for a potential regent.

Helian Zheng and Feng Zhiwei although married didn't consummate.

Missing backstory...well we know the show was cut short especially in the end. In that light it may be too much ask for everyone's backstory. But I found this on google that might help https://cfensi.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/an-introduction-to-the-characters-in-the-rise-of-phoenixes/

 

EDIT: Hold up...this link says Gu Yan is Gu Nanyi's biological father but under Nanyi it says his father abandoned him on the streets because he was autistic. Huh? lol ignore the info on that link. Think its from multiple sources. I'm still gonna leave it there because the other info is helpful.

 

Edited December 3, 2018 by niniandkun

[skibbies]

22 minutes ago, niniandkun said:

EDIT: Hold up...this link says Gu Yan is Gu Nanyi's biological father but under Nanyi it says his father abandoned him on the streets because he was autistic. Huh? lol ignore the info on that link. Think its from multiple sources. I'm still gonna leave it there because the other info is helpful.

Both of those are from the novels, the second is little debatable, but the information is from Gu Nanyi who got the information from Zong  Chen. From the last chapter of the novel

Spoiler

Gu Yan apparently didn't abandon him on purpose. Bloody Pagoda forced him to go on missions a lot and he had to leave Nanyi behind (idk with who, because Gu Yan's wife died giving birth). He betrayed Bloody Pagoda so it'll dissolve apparently, but that didn't work out well. Gu Heng hunted him down for betraying them, when he got home, Nanyi already disappeared, and was found by Zong Chen first.

 

[niniandkun]

17 hours ago, whisper1 said:

Why is his name GU Nanyi? Could he be the lost son of Chief Gu? Or why does he have the same birthmark as FengZhiwei?  Just wondering...

1 hour ago, skibbies said:

I don't remember him having the same birth mark?

I want to know the answer to this too lol. On Episode 14, Zhiwei remarks that they both have the same mole near the eye (this is when they just joined Qingming and had their first meal together). I hoped for some interesting connection or backstory but nothing. So just a coincidence then?

 

17 hours ago, whisper1 said:

I have selfish motives when it comes to the rich cast of characters in RotP.  They provide the viewer with a lot to chew on, and I  can be like a dog with a bone, only satisfied when I've  exhausted  myself,lol. I greatly appreciate the discussion.

I really like Gu Nanyi but more for Zhiwei than for himself. He is a worthy addition to Zhiwei's entourage. That may sound mean but its just what I honestly feel. But can def relate to wanting to know more and understand all the characters in tRop.

17 hours ago, whisper1 said:

Back to Mama Qui. Anyone think she was motivated by a good bit of resentment toward FengZhiwei for surviving while her own child was sacrificed? 

Its hard to say. My take is that she didn't resent ZhiWei. She cared about her as the princess of the empire she devoted her life to and as a daughter she raised. But mostly because of the former. Her unwavering loyalty to dacheng and ethos of the time means she probably believed she was carrying out a divine order or very honorable mission. So sacrificing her kid is sort of like a good deed whose rewards even her kid might benefit from in the next life. Not that it wasn't a painful choice for her but I don't think she resented Zhiwei for it. Must have channeled it all to the Nings.

[niniandkun]

15 minutes ago, skibbies said:

Both of those are from the novels, the second is little debatable, but the information is from Gu Nanyi who got the information from Zong  Chen. From the last chapter of the novel

  Reveal hidden contents

Thats too bad. Then it doesn't work in the drama because Gu Yan's wife and kid went missing after NingYi forced him to surrender. I can't remember what exactly happened with them now did Ning Chuan kill them or force them into hiding then they died? ah will keep a lookout for this on my next watch.

[troptina]

I really like the scene when Zhao Geishi expressed to the Emperor his feelings of sympathy and sadness for NY's life as a commoner  after experiencing life as a royal.  He summed it up pretty nicely by chronologically stating his solitary life in the temple, then being shunned by his siblings, then having the love of his life shipped to Jinshi,turning into a commoner, and then to have his mother killed.  I was totally feeling like, yeah that's why turned out the way he did!  

 

Thanks everyone for helpine me understand the 'remnant' concept.  I totally get it now.  

 

By the way, does anyone know if the manga (https://ac.qq.com/ComicView/index/id/636445/cid/16) is actually based on the novel or not?  It's alot less daunting to read the manga, than trying to understand the electronic version of the book using translation (http://big5.quanben.io/n/huangquan/list.html).  Is this electronic version an abridged version of the actual novel?

[skibbies]

1 hour ago, troptina said:

By the way, does anyone know if the manga (https://ac.qq.com/ComicView/index/id/636445/cid/16) is actually based on the novel or not?  It's alot less daunting to read the manga, than trying to understand the electronic version of the book using translation (http://big5.quanben.io/n/huangquan/list.html).  Is this electronic version an abridged version of the actual novel?

It's based on the novel. Almost chapter to chapter I think? (judging by the chapter title anyways, I only skimmed the first chapter) It just started though and it's weekly updates, so it's going to take years to finish. The electronic version is the original version, it was posted as a web novel online, they even ported over all the announcements about her various books being published at the end XD If you are wondering why the chapters are so short in the beginning, I think it's because they were free chapters. The chapters gets longer and longer. It's only missing the extra/epilogue chapters. Someone is doing weekly partial translation of the novel (that skip a lot of description stuff) on tumblr iirc?

EDIT: wait wait manhua, how is it Changxi 14th year? does this mean she's 17 in the manhua? I guess that make sense?? why not make her 18 though? (The book spans from Changxi 12th winter to Fengxiang 5th. The Emperor died in Changxi 20th year, Changxi is emperor's name, as in Changxi emperor, not Ning Changxi, he doesn't get a name in the novel...I think? It's used as calender years too.)

 

Ok I got curious and read the manhua. It has a flashback of 16 years ago. So she's 17, when babies were born in Ancient China, they are 1 years old, then they age when it hits Chinese New Years. so if you were born in December, congrats, you are 2 years old when it hits January. I actually forgot babies were born as 1 year old for a bit because modern China doesn't do it anymore (Korea does though iirc) and I was like ?___?

 

also she became imperial advisor really fast, it'd have to be before CNY? but I thought she was there for several months at least? that's a really long winter.

[alittlemei]

Upon rewatching the series, it is said that NY is locked up for 8 years because he met with General yuan cong. Isn’t he the general that was planted by the Crown Prince to fake a rebellion?

 

i always thought that he left the capital to get help for his brother prince #3. But now I understand that he was also trapped by crown prince scheme! 

[Pollen Ainne]

On 12/2/2018 at 1:38 PM, troptina said:

@Pollen AinneI completely agree that they really fell in love only after their own transformations.  However, it seemed pretty clear they were attracted to each other from the very beginning. I think it was the early realization that "this person is so different from anyone I've met." That's why FZW carried the clothes that NY gave her when she was running away from Qiu residence for her life.  It's also the reason for why he couldn't stay back when the masked men went to save her from Chang Hai's soldiers.  I still find it so funny that NY was so frank in responding to FZWs question of why he saved her in the first place by saying it's because he likes girls like her.  And for a split second she debates whether any of it could be the honest truth.

Yes they were attracted to each other. I mean Zhiwei could have left to explore the world as what she wanted but she stayed when she heard that Ning Yi might die. So she decided to help him. Although of course, she did owe him, so it might be part repaying a favor, but they definitely were attracted to each other from the start. It just wasn't love yet.

 

Ning Yi wasn't being frank when he said he liked Zhiwei though (at the beginning). He was deliberately avoiding Zhiwei's question by using "like" as an excuse. Zhiwei also calmly thought about his answer, because she wasn't affected that much. She simply called his lie by completely ignoring his excuse. I mean their feelings at the time were not that strong. But Zhiwei was intrigued at how deceptive Ning Yi was, and Ning Yi was intrigued at how perceptive Zhiwei was.

 

On 12/3/2018 at 9:30 AM, alittlemei said:

I feel that FZW mum is selfish because she decided her fate for her by making her swear on something that makes no sense. NY didn’t kill her husband. It was crown prince. And NY saved FZW so many times. She’s ungrateful. 

In the end, most characters in the story weren't black and white. I too quite disliked her. But she wasn't all bad. In the end, she did ask Master Zong to let Zhiwei choose for herself and she had no knowledge of the 4th Dacheng Prince so it wasn't because of his existence. In her own way, she did love her children. Yet, she was also bound to a deep loyalty to the previous dynasty. However, I can't quite understand how she can easily sacrifice Feng Hao for Zhiwei which makes one think that maybe her love for Zhiwei also stemmed from her loyalty. And yet, she did mention that she cared about what happens to Zhiwei now unlike before because now she sees Zhiwei as a daughter. I guess maybe Zhiwei was both daughter and princess to her so she weighed more than Feng Hao who was just a son... But the fact that she actually asked Master Zhong to not force Zhiwei meant that in the end, her love for her daughter as a mother won?

 

12 hours ago, skibbies said:

No one knows what happened that night. Ning Yi could have helped Crown Prince killed Gu Heng. The audience knows he didn't, but Qiu Mingying doesn't. Ning Yi did solicited Gu Yan to be a traitor, however. Marriage is between two families, especially in those times and especially if it's to royal family. Considering Zhiwei's identity, there's high chance that she'd end up unhappy or dead. Ning Yi at the time was an unfavoured prince who just got released from prison with very little power, who may get pulled into power struggle that usually end up with him and families tied to him died, which even under other circumstances isn't a great match. I'm not sure if Qiu Mingying knows Ning Yi saved Zhiwei afterwards? It's very unclear how good the information network Zong Chen had access to, and even if he had good amount of info, it doesn't necessarily means Mama Qiu gets in the know, so I wouldn't call her ungrateful at all. She's just working with very different set of information and values.

I wonder though if not once did she actually think that Ning Yi was seriously in love with his daughter? I mean, he did save her from a death sentence. That she should know about. And when Ning Yi freed her and Feng Hao from Ning Chuan, what was her reasoning about that? She already knew, Ning Yi knew about their secret and yet kept it hidden. I actually do think that Qui Mingying intentionally turns a blind eye to the reality of Ning Yi and Zhiwei's shared feelings because no matter what, she could only see Ning Yi as an enemy. In a way, even if she knew the entire extent of how much Ning Yi protects Zhiwei, she will never accept him or be thankful to him. 

 

On 12/3/2018 at 9:30 AM, alittlemei said:

NY can marry Secretary Yao daughter as part of the storyline to further his bloodline. Perhaps later in the story, he met FZW again.

I am sure that this is not gonna be a popular opinion, but I do like Yao Yangci as Empress. Not as Ning Yi's lover of course. But I can see her as someone who would work with him like Zhuyin. They are both regal and brilliant. And I hope no one stones me to death.

 

 

[skibbies]

8 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

I wonder though if not once did she actually think that Ning Yi was seriously in love with his daughter? I mean, he did save her from a death sentence. That she should know about. And when Ning Yi freed her and Feng Hao from Ning Chuan, what was her reasoning about that? She already knew, Ning Yi knew about their secret and yet kept it hidden. I actually do think that Qui Mingying intentionally turns a blind eye to the reality of Ning Yi and Zhiwei's shared feelings because no matter what, she could only see Ning Yi as an enemy. In a way, even if she knew the entire extent of how much Ning Yi protects Zhiwei, she will never accept him or be thankful to him. 

WIth Ning Chuan and keeping their secret, from her pov it'd be freeing them for his own agenda, which she doesn't know about. There's no reason to suspect at the time that Ning Yi likes Zhiwei (it's debatable from audience point of view that he likes her romantically at that point. He's interested in her, I'm still not sure about like). For the death sentence, yeah she might have turned blind eye to that, because what else was she suppose to do? He represent the family that destroyed her kingdom and her family. Even if there's feelings between her daughter and this prince, who's to say how much of it is real and how much of it is manipulation or with an agenda? I think even when she wanted to let Zhiwei do what she does, it doesn't include getting involved with Ning Yi in anyway because it's antithesis of what she believed in her entire life. Maybe if they had 10, 20 years, she would change.

 

9 hours ago, alittlemei said:

Upon rewatching the series, it is said that NY is locked up for 8 years because he met with General yuan cong. Isn’t he the general that was planted by the Crown Prince to fake a rebellion?

Yep! and he's only mentioned twice I think?

[niniandkun]

14 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

 

On 12/3/2018 at 7:00 AM, alittlemei said:

NY can marry Secretary Yao daughter as part of the storyline to further his bloodline. Perhaps later in the story, he met FZW again.

I am sure that this is not gonna be a popular opinion, but I do like Yao Yangci as Empress. Not as Ning Yi's lover of course. But I can see her as someone who would work with him like Zhuyin. They are both regal and brilliant. And I hope no one stones me to death.

This is shallow but it irks me that she has the same hairstyle as Qiu Mingying. She better get a new hairdo as empress

I support the idea of her being empress only because I want NY to experience fatherhood and have the opportunity to be a better father than his own in this lifetime.

From the short scenes we see of her I can't see much physical chemistry between her and NY. Thats good, NY should'nt have it too good either. He better not fall for her, not even as a minor second love. Just care for her as a friend and mother of his kids. I allow him to experience other joys but not romantic love. Thats reserved for Zhiwei in his next life. I've officially lost it....

[Pollen Ainne]

8 hours ago, skibbies said:

WIth Ning Chuan and keeping their secret, from her pov it'd be freeing them for his own agenda, which she doesn't know about. There's no reason to suspect at the time that Ning Yi likes Zhiwei (it's debatable from audience point of view that he likes her romantically at that point. He's interested in her, I'm still not sure about like).

Yeah I meant eventually realizing it... certainly not at that point but you know, the evidence piling up or something like that. And although it was for Ning Yi's own agenda, he still could have used the revelation of their secret to further his agenda against the crown prince, but instead he completely kept it hidden. Even if not for the love of Zhiwei, it still tells of the kind of man Ning Yi is. But I think she still never saw that. I feel like, whatever Ning Yi did, she turned a blind eye to it.

 

8 hours ago, skibbies said:

For the death sentence, yeah she might have turned blind eye to that, because what else was she suppose to do? He represent the family that destroyed her kingdom and her family. Even if there's feelings between her daughter and this prince, who's to say how much of it is real and how much of it is manipulation or with an agenda? I think even when she wanted to let Zhiwei do what she does, it doesn't include getting involved with Ning Yi in anyway because it's antithesis of what she believed in her entire life. Maybe if they had 10, 20 years, she would change.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant. I am not saying that her character didn't have realistic motivations or views, I'm just saying that she chose only to look at the darker side of Ning Yi because it would not do well for her to actually see him as a good person. She has her own reasons for it, but I feel that gratefulness would never come into her mind no matter what Ning Yi would do. I mean, I don't think the thought that Ning Yi really likes her daughter came to her mind, because she doesn't even see Ning Yi as a person. Only an enemy. She is not intentionally being ungrateful. She just could not credit him for anything. But yeah, maybe 10-20 years can make her finally really see him as a person. 

 

2 hours ago, niniandkun said:

This is shallow but it irks me that she has the same hairstyle as Qiu Mingying. She better get a new hairdo as empress

I support the idea of her being empress only because I want NY to experience fatherhood and have the opportunity to be a better father than his own in this lifetime.

From the short scenes we see of her I can't see much physical chemistry between her and NY. Thats good, NY should'nt have it too good either. He better not fall for her, not even as a minor second love. Just care for her as a friend and mother of his kids. I allow him to experience other joys but not romantic love. Thats reserved for Zhiwei in his next life. I've officially lost it....

She does? Oh I didn't notice it. The style looks different on her so I didn't notice it. 

 

Oh yes! Definitely I do not wat them to have chemistry and fall in love or anything like that. I want them to be in a relationship like how Ning Yi was to Zhuyin. But of course they still have to propagate. lol. I totally agree to all of what you said. The reason I like Yangci is because I don't think she is the type of person who would get attracted to Ning Yi at all. She seems to be very logical and level-headed. I think she would make a great ally. 

[troptina]

2 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

 

Oh yes! Definitely I do not wat them to have chemistry and fall in love or anything like that. I want them to be in a relationship like how Ning Yi was to Zhuyin. But of course they still have to propagate

I'm still in denial that NY will need to propagate with someone else....

 

Actually, doesn't Sec Yao look like he's almost 60?  Assuming his daughter is in her 20s, doesn't it mean he had her at a very old age?  In fact, the Emperor seems pretty old too, compared to the age of the Princes.  Is it that common back then for men to marry young but bear kids much later in life?  Even for Dahua who seems to have been married to XZY for a long time, she was barren until the miscarriage.  Or was it that it was actually biologically difficult to bear children back then (ie because of plagues or disease?

[tendrilsofwind]

28 minutes ago, troptina said:

I'm still in denial that NY will need to propagate with someone else....

 

Actually, doesn't Sec Yao look like he's almost 60?  Assuming his daughter is in her 20s, doesn't it mean he had her at a very old age?  In fact, the Emperor seems pretty old too, compared to the age of the Princes.  Is it that common back then for men to marry young but bear kids much later in life?  Even for Dahua who seems to have been married to XZY for a long time, she was barren until the miscarriage.  Or was it that it was actually biologically difficult to bear children back then (ie because of plagues or disease?

 

It wasn't biologically difficult to bear children, it's just that all the rich men keep acquiring more consorts. One of those situations where the men get older, but the girls they marry stay the same age. 

 

[troptina]

19 hours ago, tendrilsofwind said:

It wasn't biologically difficult to bear children, it's just that all the rich men keep acquiring more consorts. One of those situations where the men get older, but the girls they marry stay the same age. 

That could be true, but it seems kinda strange that even among the Princes only Nng Qi was married.  Since NY was probably 26y, then the Crown Prince being the oldest was probably no more than 10y older.  I'm guessing he was probably between 30-36y in age, but wasn't married yet.  Why weren't the older princes married yet?  Meanwhile the first thing the Emperor did after NY got out of the temple was to have him marry Qiu Yu Luo.  

 

I was also trying to pinpoint at what point did NY and FZW realize they loved each other?  Of course Minhai was when they consciously admitted it .  But subconconsciously they probably knew earlier on.  For NY, I feel the subconscious realization probably took place sometime after the killing of Crown Prince but before the pseudo kissing scene after the failed explosion attack. It would have been really out-of-character for him to do that if he didn't have romantic interest in her by that point.  For FZW, I find it harder to tell.  I can't really tell if she fell in love with him before Minhai or not.  During the Crown Prince killing incident, it seems she really cared for NY--otherwise she wouldn't have run to the scene of the shooting while Huai Shi and Gu Nanyi advised her to stay away.  But probably she didn't love him at that point yet.  At the prison cell before her sentencing when NY presented 2 options, she'd rather die than to entangle NY into the mess as way to repay him.  So I feel her earliest subconscious expression of love for NY was probably during the excursion to town right before Minhai when she bought him that statue gift.  By the time they were on the boat heading to Minhai, when she referred to the fog blocking her ability to see clearly, I think she was already realizing that she loved him.  But at that time she was confused about her emotions towards him.  

[storyofthestone]

I'm on vacation in Italy right now so have had no time just yet to respond to everyone's interesting posts but I've been silently following along!

 

I did want to say one thing- I am in Ravenna today and started thinking about Zhiwei and Ning Yi while staring at the incredible Byzantine mosaics at the Basilica of San Vitale.

 

That sound like crazy fangirl behavior? Probably. Let me explain. The basilica was built by the emperor Justinian and his empress Theodora in 547. Justinian and Theodora's relationship was a real life grand romance and a true meeting of the minds and collaboration of intellectual equals. She was a courtesan whose father was a bear trainer; he came from a farming family whose path to the throne was unexpected indeed. To marry her, Justinian had his uncle the emperor Justin change the law forbidding government officials from marrying actresses. Justinian immediately made her co-regent upon becoming emperor, giving her equal power and authority. They worked together closely in all things and were the perfect political tagteam. Their gorgeous mosaic portraits in San Vitale (of equal size and fineness) have faced each other for almost 1500 years - how romantic! This excellent blog post goes into more detail about their backgrounds and some highlights (and also a rather illuminating low point) of their reign: https://nefchronicles.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/theodora-justinian-reign-of-equals/amp/

 

 Zhiwei was not a courtesan in the drama and Ning Yi was not a farmer. But they found each other under unexpected circumstances, first getting to know each other disguised as a silly girl pretending to be a House of Lanxiang courtesan and a humble little tailor. They gained unexpected power through wit, strategy, and trust in each other. If only the ending could have been different for Zhiwei, could their relationship have blossomed into a beautiful partnership like Justinian and Theodora? I like to imagine it.