[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Rise of Phoenixes 凰权·弈天下

[skibbies]

21 hours ago, sonosong said:

My only remaining gripe is that (and I don't mean to diss the co-director) I wish they had chosen another actor for the role of the 4th Prince of Dacheng. Someone with more onscreen presence and prominence. Also, someone who can convincingly look like like he would be Zhiwei's blood brother. Hope I'm not being too shallow when I say that.

tbh I agree with you. I tried to headcanon that being subjugated to Chang family's rule changed him, including his regal presence. He probably suffered a lot and had to learn to lay low and such, except it's not pretense and he basically blended in with the common folks. Ideally we'd have someone who had presence but very obviously trying to pretend they don't but....lol. As for appearance, we can blame it on their mum being different?

 

I just found out the Japanese title is a direct translation of The Rise of Phoenixes, I thought they'd just use the book title. Does 凰権 work as a title in Japanese? it just seems bit more distinctive and less......straightforward.....?

 

20 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

I don't follow idol groups, so I don't know much about Arashi although I did hear Jun Matsumoto was a member of it. I have seen quite a lot of jdramas these past few years as they have quite a lot of adaptations but as you said I keep on running into Kento instead. And he was ok and sometimes not so great. But I recently saw him in Todomo no Kiss and Kimiuso and he was really good in it. (I guess it happens when you just have too many shows, you can't help but improve, lol)

I guess jdrama found their new darlings? Well, Oguri Shun is still doing them, but they are all pretty different, Lupin the Third, lead in uplifting shounen Space Brothers, a kappa in Arakawa Under the Bridge (it's a peculiar comedy) and Gintama. As for Kento, I really liked him in Orange as well! I recommend it but it's also not a light watch.

 

20 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

Actually I also wanted more Jinshi episodes. The reason I feel things were rushed was because we saw so many interesting characters discarded. His sister was very interesting as well.

The book had more Jinshi content (another place where Zhiwei shows her brilliance) but the drama self censored since they didn't want to touch on minority groups too much. 

[sonosong]

@skibbies I can't speak for all Japanese people but tbh 鳳凰の飛翔 sounds a lot better than 凰権 in Japanese. They're also being practical and putting the title in plain English as well. 

 

Sadly the episodes come out in smaller batches in Japan than they did in the US. But if this gains popularity it will give it a greater chance to get a Blu Ray release in Japan at the end of next year, which I'm not complaining about. I want - no, NEED - a physical copy of this on Blu Ray. 

4 hours ago, skibbies said:

tbh I agree with you. I tried to headcanon that being subjugated to Chang family's rule changed him, including his regal presence. He probably suffered a lot and had to learn to lay low and such, except it's not pretense and he basically blended in with the common folks. Ideally we'd have someone who had presence but very obviously trying to pretend they don't but....lol. As for appearance, we can blame it on their mum being different?

I'll take that explanation and try to swallow my one, remaining gripe then. But what I meant by onscreen presence isn't merely a princely or regal aura. A fallen prince who has to lay low and scrape and bow to the son of a family that he felt took everything away from him would have murderous intent or seem broken inside. I never once felt that intensity in his eyes. I just don't think he's that good of an actor. 

On 11/14/2018 at 10:15 AM, Pollen Ainne said:

I am not quite sure how others define chemistry, because to a lot, it probably is enough that they look good together and say and do romantic things. But I just feel differently. I can probably count in one hand the times that I see chemistry and tRoP is one of those.

There's really no real way for me to define onscreen chemistry either. It's not just about looking good together and saying/doing romantic things, or else I'd be more crazy for Mark Chao/Yang Mi pairing. I just watched TMoPB, and I can truly say that I felt no real chemistry there. I would say that Eita and Hikari Mitsushima in Soredemo, Ikite Yuku is closest to that definition of real chemistry in a jdrama. It was so hard to watch them play siblings in their next drama because of that.

 

As for Chen Kun and Ni Ni, they have an amazing, professional working relationship and a friendship that translates outside of work. I watched the Happy Camp episode with them too, and even though I couldn't understand anything, you could see how much they enjoy each other's company. Ning Yi and Zhiwei have that extra something that makes them pop. I attribute it to the fact that they have an incredible amount of trust in each other. Ck was practically "living" as his character, and Ni Ni had become "Zhiwei", so all those emotions - love, lust, pain, etc. - were all real and genuine. They, as their characters, were truly in love, and it translated onscreen. I sure as hell felt it. I suppose that's why the two of them, in separate interviews, kept mentioning that they had a hard time pulling out of their characters. In those seven months, they were Ning Yi and Feng Zhiwei.

 

So happy I found this drama. I feel like I keep rehashing things over and over again, but I can't help it. I still haven't been able to move on yet.

[Pollen Ainne]

6 hours ago, sonosong said:

I would say that Eita and Hikari Mitsushima in Soredemo, Ikite Yuku is closest to that definition of real chemistry in a jdrama. It was so hard to watch them play siblings in their next drama because of that.

lol! When you said Soredemo I thought of Soredemo Sekai wa Utsukushii and got startled for a moment. There was no way that could be translated to live action. But ok, it was something else...

 

6 hours ago, sonosong said:

As for Chen Kun and Ni Ni, they have an amazing, professional working relationship and a friendship that translates outside of work. I watched the Happy Camp episode with them too, and even though I couldn't understand anything, you could see how much they enjoy each other's company. Ning Yi and Zhiwei have that extra something that makes them pop. I attribute it to the fact that they have an incredible amount of trust in each other. Ck was practically "living" as his character, and Ni Ni had become "Zhiwei", so all those emotions - love, lust, pain, etc. - were all real and genuine. They, as their characters, were truly in love, and it translated onscreen. I sure as hell felt it. I suppose that's why the two of them, in separate interviews, kept mentioning that they had a hard time pulling out of their characters. In those seven months, they were Ning Yi and Feng Zhiwei.

Exactly! If I were to translate chemistry, it would be something like that. When you feel that the actors have drawn themselves into their characters so much, that a part of themselves (which is made up) is really in love with each other. I can remember in one of Ni Ni's interviews, she was tearing up with just talking about the ending, as if she actually had her heart broken then. They really stepped into those characters' lives. And it has to be two-way. Sometimes, in other dramas, it happens that only one of the actors is able to be in that state, and it gets really frustrating to watch. It takes me out of the show more than when the both of them aren't really in it. lol

 

8 hours ago, skibbies said:

I really liked him in Orange as well! I recommend it but it's also not a light watch.

Oh I read Orange manga and I didn't want to watch the drama as that was enough for me. lol

 

8 hours ago, skibbies said:

The book had more Jinshi content (another place where Zhiwei shows her brilliance) but the drama self censored since they didn't want to touch on minority groups too much. 

This really makes me wish the drama was seasonal. So we can expound more on the world and all the other characters. I was so interested in so many things that they just touched on so lightly. In Yue, I also wanted to see the crown prince and the King who were only mentioned but never seen. I was really curious about them.

[niniandkun]

On 11/14/2018 at 11:54 PM, Pollen Ainne said:

On 11/14/2018 at 11:10 PM, sonosong said:

My only remaining gripe is that (and I don't mean to diss the co-director) I wish they had chosen another actor for the role of the 4th Prince of Dacheng. Someone with more onscreen presence and prominence. Also, someone who can convincingly look like like he would be Zhiwei's blood brother. Hope I'm not being too shallow when I say that.

I don't think it is being shallow. He doesn't have to be tall and handsome. He just needs to be someone that can convince me that he could sit on the throne. I just could not see it.

Didn't think of it at the time but now I too think his performance could've been more diabolical and ambitious. He didn't exhibit enough throne lust. Or maybe his character was truly a servant of dacheng and only motivated by his duty to the rightful empire. I'm impressed by the loyalty of dacheng supporters. I wish they expanded more on dacheng's legacy so we could understand these people more...maybe even root for them.  I would've liked to see Qiu Mingying's point of view, in a way that makes us empathize with her. This would add more weight to Zhiwei's side of the story too and really make us appreciate the power and conflict of her position. Course the way the story progressed (zhiwei being passive and apathetic) didn't call for a background story but it just makes you sigh. We never got to see her become powerful even though its something her character initially wanted to be (albeit for noble/selfless reasons). We didn't get to see her shine in Minhai and after she found out she was infact princess, it hardly made a difference. It's such a let down after rooting for her and watching her grow in the previous episodes. Feng Hao might as well have been the real prince because Zhiwei did nothing significant as princess.

If there was ever a story to equally develop both leads its this one. If it was even a slightly lesser heroine, NingYi (as portrayed by Chen Kun) could easliy stand on his own and I could've dismissed his tragic love as a side story in his larger story. But Zhiwei is not just a girl he crossed paths with and caught feelings. She is the catalyst for many arcs and her lineage makes her the most important person in the story after NingYi.

 

On 11/14/2018 at 11:10 PM, sonosong said:

Yuan Hong's Prince of An was introduced much later in the story, but he really nailed his scenes in the short time he had. Even the guy who played the batty son in the Si Family in Jinshi who was locked up in a temple and had his face ruined felt like he had more impact on me. I think they could have managed to pull this off in 70 episodes satisfactorily (for me, at least) if they had chosen the right person to play that role. 

Yup agreed. When casting is done right it shows immediately. Especially Prince of An. As much as I hate the direction the story took after minhai, his part of the story was very interesting. He had the potential to be a true antagonist to NingYi. I was kindof bummed he just died in the flood. NingQi shouldve disappeared like that lol or just been somewhere irrelevant in the side while Prince of An came back with renewed vigour to go against NingYi.

 

 

 

[mspilgrims]

Hello guys!

In these last days I've watched the most interesting episodes of our beloved show and you know what? I wrote a different plot for the beginning of episode 25 ('cause I'm crazy, I know it!). My romantic side cannot stand the absence of a little skinship!!!

So, just to share, please read my attempt to make our main couple a little more straightforward and make your comments.

 

They rolled over and over on the floor behind colored and thin curtains. A sudden silence fell over them. They could hear on the ground level the echo of alarmed voices, men searching for the attackers.



Ning Yi was on top of her. Zhiwei could feel the weight of his body, his breath on her face. Even in the dim light, she could see his fine features: the straight nose, the well-shaped mouth and the eyes, his beautiful almost black eyes. The same eyes that now were looking at her. ZhiWei averted her head, embarrassed. She found nothing to say, expecting him to stand up any moment. He stayed. She looked at him again, surprised. He smiled in response, a smile that stunned her. In an instant Ning Yi was leaning over, the distance between them so little that Zhiwei panicked and turned her face on her right side.



He then scoffed and lightly passed his nose on her cheek, like a caress. She turned to look at him again, confused, her heart pounding furiously and her cheeks in flames. This time he gave her no chance to think it over and kissed her delicately on the lips . She felt about to cry.



- I’m so tired – he said – Aren’t you tired?



Zhiwei was speechless, she was like floating in a dream land, a place where he wasn’t a prince and she wasn’t a silly girl in love dressed as a man. She raised one hand to gently brush his cheek, a single tear running down her eye. Ning Yi smiled again, a true, wonderful smile and he kissed her once more, deeply, fondly, like they were lovers and nothing could ever separate them.



And then, all was finished as it never happened. Ning Yi was suddenly on his feet, as calm as ever, stretching a hand to her.



- Shall we go? – he said.



Zhiwei nodded, trying to collect herself, but she knew that everything had changed forever.

 

[Pollen Ainne]

20 hours ago, niniandkun said:

I wish they expanded more on dacheng's legacy so we could understand these people more...maybe even root for them.  I would've liked to see Qiu Mingying's point of view, in a way that makes us empathize with her. This would add more weight to Zhiwei's side of the story too and really make us appreciate the power and conflict of her position. Course the way the story progressed (zhiwei being passive and apathetic) didn't call for a background story but it just makes you sigh. We never got to see her become powerful even though its something her character initially wanted to be (albeit for noble/selfless reasons). We didn't get to see her shine in Minhai and after she found out she was infact princess, it hardly made a difference. It's such a let down after rooting for her and watching her grow in the previous episodes. Feng Hao might as well have been the real prince because Zhiwei did nothing significant as princess.

If there was ever a story to equally develop both leads its this one. If it was even a slightly lesser heroine, NingYi (as portrayed by Chen Kun) could easliy stand on his own and I could've dismissed his tragic love as a side story in his larger story. But Zhiwei is not just a girl he crossed paths with and caught feelings. She is the catalyst for many arcs and her lineage makes her the most important person in the story after NingYi.

 

I do agree. Although I am glad that they gave great importance to Ning Yi's character and developed the people around him, it is sad that it is made at Zhiwei's expense. If only both could get expanded on. But I think we might need the 100 episodes for that. i wouldn't have minded though. Because definitely I don't want them to compact the first and second arcs. A lot of people might have thought it as slow but to me it was just perfect. I loved how the story flowed and I enjoyed each moment of it. In my opinion, the beginning was paced perfectly, the mid was kinda rushed, and the end was unbearably rushed. 

 

20 hours ago, niniandkun said:

NingQi shouldve disappeared like that lol or just been somewhere irrelevant in the side while Prince of An came back with renewed vigour to go against NingYi.

Ha! Although the story had to go with Ning Qi being alive, I sure would have liked seeing Jin Siyu as the last villain instead of Ning Qi.

 

8 hours ago, mspilgrims said:

Hello guys!

In these last days I've watched the most interesting episodes of our beloved show and you know what? I wrote a different plot for the beginning of episode 25 ('cause I'm crazy, I know it!). My romantic side cannot stand the absence of a little skinship!!!

So, just to share, please read my attempt to make our main couple a little more straightforward and make your comments.

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

They rolled over and over on the floor behind colored and thin curtains. A sudden silence fell over them. They could hear on the ground level the echo of alarmed voices, men searching for the attackers.



Ning Yi was on top of her. Zhiwei could feel the weight of his body, his breath on her face. Even in the dim light, she could see his fine features: the straight nose, the well-shaped mouth and the eyes, his beautiful almost black eyes. The same eyes that now were looking at her. ZhiWei averted her head, embarrassed. She found nothing to say, expecting him to stand up any moment. He stayed. She looked at him again, surprised. He smiled in response, a smile that stunned her. In an instant Ning Yi was leaning over, the distance between them so little that Zhiwei panicked and turned her face on her right side.



He then scoffed and lightly passed his nose on her cheek, like a caress. She turned to look at him again, confused, her heart pounding furiously and her cheeks in flames. This time he gave her no chance to think it over and kissed her delicately on the lips . She felt about to cry.



- I’m so tired – he said – Aren’t you tired?



Zhiwei was speechless, she was like floating in a dream land, a place where he wasn’t a prince and she wasn’t a silly girl in love dressed as a man. She raised one hand to gently brush his cheek, a single tear running down her eye. Ning Yi smiled again, a true, wonderful smile and he kissed her once more, deeply, fondly, like they were lovers and nothing could ever separate them.



And then, all was finished as it never happened. Ning Yi was suddenly on his feet, as calm as ever, stretching a hand to her.



- Shall we go? – he said.



Zhiwei nodded, trying to collect herself, but she knew that everything had changed forever.


 

 

 

 

Cute

[raziela]

I was massively anticipating this drama (I just looked back and saw I was the second person to post on the thread back in May 2017!) I was feeling very indignant at its commercial failure in China before I watched but I have to admit now I have FINALLY completed the drama I can understand why it didn't do well. Ultimately, I felt this drama didn't live up to it's potential but there were things I loved as well as things I hated.

 

DISCLAIMER: These are just my jumbled, random opinions and I'm well aware some of my opinions will be controversial ***SPOILERS AHEAD***

 

- Pacing was terrible.  I felt like this drama was simultaneously too long and too short at the same time. It did not use the large number of episodes wisely. 

 

- Feng Zhi Wei should have been the protagonist.  I felt like a lot of the paciong and stories could have been avoided if the focus had been on ZW.  It felt like her character was watered down to place more emphasis on Ning Yi.  At times ZW seemed almost incidental to the storyline and I should not feel that way about the lead female.  Even being the lost princess seemed mostly irrelevant to the plot in the end.  However, Ni Ni gained a new fan in me after this drama. Her acting was excellent, she is so incredibly beautiful and she even made a credible male. If anyone can recommend any of her other works I would be grateful

 

- Chen Kun = Miscast.  It is not good when I am watching the drama and thinking that that some of the other actors in the drama would have done a much better job with the lead character.  I found his portrayal of Ning Yi was wildly inconsistent, unbelievable and unsympathetic.  It almost felt like he filmed  at two different times and changed his mind on how to play the character. He is obviously a very talented actor and some of his scenes were great but at other times I thought he overacted to a ridiculous extent.  It took me completely out of the drama and had me looking at the screen thinking "what is he doing and why?" About halfway through the drama I realised that I didn't even like Ning Yi much.  I wanted him to succeed but mainly for all the people on his side who had fought and sacrificed to help him. I was Team Ning Yi because of his team rather than NY himself lol

 

- Hate to say it because I enjoyed Ni Ni and Chen Kun behind the scenes interaction but oncreen their chemistry was unconvincing.  The weird thing is I thought they HAD tons of chemistry in the early episodes but it seemed to reach a  crescendo in episode 25 with that scene among the curtains and then it seemed to fade as the drama went on and on and on.  I did not feel any emotion about any of their angsty tearfilled scenes in the later episodes and I usually eat that stuff up with a spoon!  The chemistry and genuine emotion was just not there, IMO.

 

- MY OTP for this drama was: Headmaster Xin and his wife, Dahua  What an adorable portrayal of a loving married relationship so rarely seen in ancient C-dramas.  I loved that she was the boss, he clearly adored her and it was so hilarious when she and her sisters came to take him away from House of Lanxiang   I loved that they seemed like a loving family too especially in Ancient China where girls were seen as a burden .  My heart absolutely broke for their loss in the later episodes   

 

- I thought the Jinshi and Puyang arcs were both very interesting.  More time should have been spent on them instead of them being crammed in towards the end as they felt rather rushed.  If the focus of the drama was on ZW it would have been a great chance to see Zhi Wei shine.  Unfortunately,  once again her character was largely sidelined and the majority of screen time was taking up with Ning Yi and his machinations behind the scenes or the fight for the throne back home. 

 

- Helian Zhang and Jinsiyu, the Prince of An. I found both these characters much more charismatic and interesting than Ning Yi.  Both actors have amazing charisma.   I didn't know Zhang Xiaochen who played Helian Zhang prior to this drama but I loved him!  I actually felt like  Ni Ni had much stronger chemistry was with both these actors.  My ideal ending would have been Zhi Wei staying married to Helian and making a genuine effort with their marriage. I think she could have been happy even if he wasn't the love of her life. He was a decent guy,  devoted to her, kind, handsome, funny and warm.. Even the empress dowager seemed to be kind and supportive which is rare for that type of character.  Jinshi women seemed to have a lot more freedom so she wouldn't have to live the cloistered life of a married women of the Tiansheng Imperial Harem. 

 

- Watching Yuan Hong in this drama made me wonder once again why he isn't a bigger star.  I've liked him since first watching him in Bu Bu Jing Xin.  He completely owned the screen during his scenes considering the relatively small amount of screentime giving to his character and the Puyang storyline.  I really would have liked to see this character and storyline have a bigger role.  

 

- Dacheng - why should we care?  We didn't know the country, the people, the history, for all we knew they could have been as corrupt as Tiansheng.  Zhi Wei had no tangible connection or memory to the lost empire besides what she was told by a bunch of mostly incompetent fanatics stuck in the past.  I agree with @sonosong the actor they chose for the 4th Prince was a baffling choice.  

 

-  I expected to be devastated by the ending but ZW killing herself at the end made perfect sense.  It was obvious these two were not going to be happy together in this lifetime.  It seemed the drama was hinting Ning Yi was doomed to repeat the errors of his father so better for Zhi Wei to leave him.  Ideally, I would have preferred she left him and went travelling around the world with our adorable Nan Yi but there was too much guilt on her shoulders to live so she sacrificed herself instead.  The saddest part of ZW's death for me was wondering what would happen to Gu Nan Yi Ni now he had lost his 'family'

 

- Costumes and hair were stunning.

 

- Majority of the supporting cast were fantastic.

- Shoutout to characters I loved but haven't had time to talk about: Gu Nan Yi (loved him ) Ning Cheng (hilarious), Zhu Yin (gone too soon ).

 

Wow...this is long!

[Pollen Ainne]

@raziela

I agree with some of your opinions and understand others. And as you didn't like Ning Yi then so of course you would want Zhiwei to be the protagonist.

 

But although I wanted to see more of Zhiwei too, and would love the show to spotlight them equally, I totally am in the utmost opposite opinion of Zhiwei stealing the limelight. Please no. I am sure I would not have loved this show at all had it been Zhiwei who stole the limelight from Ning Yi. Why I know this is because I have started so many cdramas and such show would sound the same as many of them. A girl on a rise from being nothing to queen/powerful being/chosen one/savior-of-the-world... oh wait, that sounds like Fuyao that I could barely get to 3 episodes on... and Ashes... and basically anything with a female lead...

 

Now maybe this show would have been completely different, maybe they would have created the one female lead show that would be extremely unique and make me change my mind about most female lead cdramas... but since I got drawn to this entire drama by the eccentricity of it's Prince, I cannot know for sure and could not imagine loosing the focus on such amazing character.

 

I would have loved it though if mid show they switched focus and expanded more on Zhiwei and her entourage. Then maybe switch back to Ning Yi at end point. The problems with the viewer being unsympathetic with the empire of Da Cheng and the Bloody Pagoda I can completely understand. They did require more back story or focus. But no show is perfect.

 

As for chemistry... wow... this is why I am confused on how people define chemistry. Because between Zhiwei and Helian Zheng, there clearly was only one-sided love there. I cannot feel any love from Zhiwei for him at all... not even a sense of belonging or trust. There was not one look that made me think so. So how can there be chemistry between them? I just don't see it. As for the Yue Prince, I couldn't even feel that he loved her at all... there was nothing there... when Zhiwei was mistakenly confessing her feelings to him, you can clearly see that his expressions were guarded and calculating. There was no sense of real connection. 

 

That's why I think most people just base chemistry on how good they think the characters look together... And this is why there is very little real chemistry in most asian dramas at all, imo. Sure they look cute together, but there is a huge difference for me with seeing people acting like they are in love, with feeling that they are really in love even when they are professing otherwise. You can feel it when they look at each other, you hear it in the lift of their tone when they talk to each other... it is an intangible thing that is very hard to catch but has nothing to do with whether you like them together or not. But I guess it must be hard to see when you dislike the character in the first place.

 

If there was any contender for chemistry it would have been Nanyi... however, although Ni Ni was so good at creating a connection with him, I think the actor who played Nanyi had ways to go...

 

I guess this show is a niche and does not appeal to the general audience who love cdramas (as Fuyao is pretty popular) and I have accepted that and am extremely grateful of its existence so at least there is a cdrama that I was able to finish watching and able to place in my favorite list of tv shows. Thank you whoever you are who made this drama and pushed through with it.

 

TL;DR: It is not perfect and I totally agree to some of your criticisms of it. But after reading everything you say, I also totally understand why it isn't so popular and thank the heavens that they stuck to making it this way. I have so many complaints about it but if the answer is to completely revise it to something entirely similar to most cdramas, then I will take it as it is!

 

Dang! I just appreciate this drama more now. lol

[whisper1]

14 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

@raziela

I agree with some of your opinions and understand others. And as you didn't like Ning Yi then so of course you would want Zhiwei to be the protagonist.

JMO Eventhough I understand the novel has a different pov, I don't  believe the FW as protagonist storyyline could have carried the whole 70 episodes of TV drama. ROTP  brings her character from " silly " to powerful in her own right, she learns and matures in a wonderful way. Without NingYi or with NY in a secondary  role , this growth would have been hard to believe given the time period depicted. 

 

Nini does a wonderful job,her skills are many. With each actor she is able to project authenticity,  there were minor sceneuuus when I said to myself, " I know how that feels, that is what I would do".  

 

The chemistry between FW and NY was extraordinary.  The dialogue and the way it was delivered never seemed to dip to clichéd  or stylized action. For this viewer the couple seemed to have an immediate reaction that went beyond casual interchange,  more like recognizing the " love map"  of a significant  other. The interplay of dialogue, is intense

 

At the end, back to GO. Is FW trapped by fate in an Atari?  The oath to her mother, her love for NY, and her own birthright  as the Remnant of an empire she can't  even remember. Her only move is death. Sad

[Pollen Ainne]

1 hour ago, whisper1 said:

The chemistry between FW and NY was extraordinary.  The dialogue and the way it was delivered never seemed to dip to clichéd  or stylized action. For this viewer the couple seemed to have an immediate reaction that went beyond casual interchange,  more like recognizing the " love map"  of a significant  other. The interplay of dialogue, is intense

Agreed. The dialogue and the way it was delivered showed me something real. More real than two people staring into each other's eyes for the longest time in any given situation that their faces are near each other. It is one of the things I cannot abide in asian dramas. I just don't get it. Most of the time, I find myself counting the times it happens. I call it the "Twilight Effect", although I am sure it must be Twilight who copied it off from asian dramas. If that is what constitutes chemistry then I am glad tRoP is free of it. lol.

 

Now I am not saying that staring isn't a good medium for sizzling chemistry, because if done correctly, it can actually reveal a lot of emotions. But there has to be something conveyed in their gazes. Like "I am sorry" or "I trust you", "I promise", or simply "Good bye." Not "I just caught your eye so I am gonna staaaaaaaare."

 

Anyway, the romance between Ning Yi and Zhiwei is really refreshing. You can hear by the way they talk that they are enjoying their banter. They were flirting with each other the way people would in real life. I just love them.

 

1 hour ago, whisper1 said:

At the end, back to GO. Is FW trapped by fate in an Atari?  The oath to her mother, her love for NY, and her own birthright  as the Remnant of an empire she can't  even remember. Her only move is death. Sad

It was depressing and frustrating to me as Zhiwei had always been a survivor. Not once had she wanted to die. Even when her mother and brother was lost, she didn't try to take her life. She even married Helian Zheng to escape the capital. She had the mark of a survivor. The only time she preferred death was when the only way to survive was to betray Ning Yi... and I guess in the end, it all boils down to that... I am just so annoyed that Ning Yi did not see that coming...

 

[raziela]

16 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

@raziela

I agree with some of your opinions and understand others. And as you didn't like Ning Yi then so of course you would want Zhiwei to be the protagonist.

 

But although I wanted to see more of Zhiwei too, and would love the show to spotlight them equally, I totally am in the utmost opposite opinion of Zhiwei stealing the limelight. Please no. I am sure I would not have loved this show at all had it been Zhiwei who stole the limelight from Ning Yi. Why I know this is because I have started so many cdramas and such show would sound the same as many of them. A girl on a rise from being nothing to queen/powerful being/chosen one/savior-of-the-world... oh wait, that sounds like Fuyao that I could barely get to 3 episodes on... and Ashes... and basically anything with a female lead...

 

Now maybe this show would have been completely different, maybe they would have created the one female lead show that would be extremely unique and make me change my mind about most female lead cdramas... but since I got drawn to this entire drama by the eccentricity of it's Prince, I cannot know for sure and could not imagine loosing the focus on such amazing character.

 

I would have loved it though if mid show they switched focus and expanded more on Zhiwei and her entourage. Then maybe switch back to Ning Yi at end point. The problems with the viewer being unsympathetic with the empire of Da Cheng and the Bloody Pagoda I can completely understand. They did require more back story or focus. But no show is perfect.

 

As for chemistry... wow... this is why I am confused on how people define chemistry. Because between Zhiwei and Helian Zheng, there clearly was only one-sided love there. I cannot feel any love from Zhiwei for him at all... not even a sense of belonging or trust. There was not one look that made me think so. So how can there be chemistry between them? I just don't see it. As for the Yue Prince, I couldn't even feel that he loved her at all... there was nothing there... when Zhiwei was mistakenly confessing her feelings to him, you can clearly see that his expressions were guarded and calculating. There was no sense of real connection. 

 

That's why I think most people just base chemistry on how good they think the characters look together... And this is why there is very little real chemistry in most asian dramas at all, imo. Sure they look cute together, but there is a huge difference for me with seeing people acting like they are in love, with feeling that they are really in love even when they are professing otherwise. You can feel it when they look at each other, you hear it in the lift of their tone when they talk to each other... it is an intangible thing that is very hard to catch but has nothing to do with whether you like them together or not. But I guess it must be hard to see when you dislike the character in the first place.

 

If there was any contender for chemistry it would have been Nanyi... however, although Ni Ni was so good at creating a connection with him, I think the actor who played Nanyi had ways to go...

 

I guess this show is a niche and does not appeal to the general audience who love cdramas (as Fuyao is pretty popular) and I have accepted that and am extremely grateful of its existence so at least there is a cdrama that I was able to finish watching and able to place in my favorite list of tv shows. Thank you whoever you are who made this drama and pushed through with it.

 

TL;DR: It is not perfect and I totally agree to some of your criticisms of it. But after reading everything you say, I also totally understand why it isn't so popular and thank the heavens that they stuck to making it this way. I have so many complaints about it but if the answer is to completely revise it to something entirely similar to most cdramas, then I will take it as it is!

 

Dang! I just appreciate this drama more now. lol

Thanks for your response! I knew my comments would be somewhat controversial!  I think a lot comes back to how miscast I found Chen Kun in the role.  I can overlook a lot of failings in the plot if I'm genuinely invested  and interested in the protagonist and I just wasn't in this drama.

 

I was also disappointed because I think this drama had such potential it didn't live up to.  I was expecting a drama at the calibre of Nirvana in Fire 2:The Wind Blows in Chang Lin which was an excellent drama that, unfortunately, didn't get the attention or audience it deserved.  Anyway for all my complaints at least I managed to stick with this until the end which is more than I can say for the Legend of Fuyao which I dropped at episode 8!

 

 

[skibbies]

On 11/16/2018 at 1:51 AM, sonosong said:

@skibbies I can't speak for all Japanese people but tbh 鳳凰の飛翔 sounds a lot better than 凰権 in Japanese. They're also being practical and putting the title in plain English as well. 

Thanks for your input! tRoP sounds fine to me in English, but it sounds kind of stupid in Chinese so I was curious how the book title would work in Japanese.

 

On 11/16/2018 at 7:55 AM, Pollen Ainne said:

This really makes me wish the drama was seasonal. So we can expound more on the world and all the other characters. I was so interested in so many things that they just touched on so lightly. In Yue, I also wanted to see the crown prince and the King who were only mentioned but never seen. I was really curious about them.

I think it would have been cancelled in season one then LOL. The general opinion I see, even amongst fans is that it takes quite a while to stick through, half way through first arc or near the end of first arc. There's no successful seasonal drama yet, though Ever Night might work, two season of 60 episodes though (s1 is 60 ep, idk about s2), and it'd have to get s3 for it to be a successful example. it's just not really how the Chinese audience are used to watching their TV, or how the industry film it or how the actors schedule their work.

 

On 11/17/2018 at 2:43 PM, raziela said:

- Feng Zhi Wei should have been the protagonist.  I felt like a lot of the paciong and stories could have been avoided if the focus had been on ZW. 

I'm not sure that would have helped tbh? The team likes to take things slow and set up everything nicely, sprinkling details everywhere, but isn't particularly great at hooking the audience. It's not the story or character or acting that's the issue, it's the presentation. If it wasn't cut, I honestly believed Zhiwei would have been developed better but you'd still think the drama is too long.

 

She is incidental in that she was accidentally dragged into power struggle and powerless a lot, especially in the beginning. But the fact she excelled as an imperial advisor and could collaborate with Ning Yi means she has some level of agency. As for Ni ni, I think her debut movie The Flowers of War is the recommended work, the rest is very much ymmv, I still haven't watched them.

 

On 11/17/2018 at 4:19 PM, Pollen Ainne said:

A girl on a rise from being nothing to queen/powerful being/chosen one/savior-of-the-world... oh wait, that sounds like Fuyao that I could barely get to 3 episodes on... and Ashes... and basically anything with a female lead...

That's not fair, these stories exist for dudes too, it's just they've been spread over 50 years of television instead of 5 or 10. As far as web novel adaptations goes, their problem is a lot of them aren't well adapted a lot of times (female protag ones fare better than male protag ones it seems) and they screw up in casting, in scripting, in pacing, also damseling the protagonist.

 

12 hours ago, whisper1 said:

JMO Eventhough I understand the novel has a different pov, I don't  believe the FW as protagonist storyyline could have carried the whole 70 episodes of TV drama. ROTP  brings her character from " silly " to powerful in her own right, she learns and matures in a wonderful way. Without NingYi or with NY in a secondary  role , this growth would have been hard to believe given the time period depicted. 

This drama is probably a 7 from fantasy (1) to historical fiction (10). It has no real actual base but draw a lot from various dynasty, the thing is, various dynasties have different level of social norms. They would have lot more freedom in Tang than in Qing. It's true that from nobody to powerful is tad unrealistic, but that depends on how you frame it. I think it's perfectly possible for them to make such a drama and still it fall on 5 fantasy to historical fiction scale, no one claims it's history after all.

 

7 hours ago, raziela said:

I was expecting a drama at the calibre of Nirvana in Fire 2:The Wind Blows in Chang Lin which was an excellent drama that, unfortunately, didn't get the attention or audience it deserved. 

NiF2 wasn't commerical success but it's not exactly a flop either. It's just it had to live up to NiF1's expectations, broadcasted on internet first then on TV for 10pm slot. I think it was two channels too, so the ratings was okay. There's also a lot of people who don't like Huang Xiao Ming, and the story is a downhill spiral, and it suffered pacing problem towards mid-late stage too. It's a far more complete story than tRoP is, but I like the highs of tRoP more. 

[Pollen Ainne]

15 hours ago, raziela said:

Thanks for your response! I knew my comments would be somewhat controversial!  I think a lot comes back to how miscast I found Chen Kun in the role.  I can overlook a lot of failings in the plot if I'm genuinely invested  and interested in the protagonist and I just wasn't in this drama.

 

Actually, I think it might be my opinions that are such a controversy. There is only a handful of us who seem to really love the show. Which is the reason why I have accepted the film to be a niche. I really just love the series so I have really strong opinions about it, but my opinions I find are in the minority. 

 

8 hours ago, skibbies said:

I think it would have been cancelled in season one then LOL. The general opinion I see, even amongst fans is that it takes quite a while to stick through, half way through first arc or near the end of first arc. There's no successful seasonal drama yet, though Ever Night might work, two season of 60 episodes though (s1 is 60 ep, idk about s2), and it'd have to get s3 for it to be a successful example. it's just not really how the Chinese audience are used to watching their TV, or how the industry film it or how the actors schedule their work.

You are right. Sometimes I just forget the audience this film was supposed to be for.

 

8 hours ago, skibbies said:

That's not fair, these stories exist for dudes too, it's just they've been spread over 50 years of television instead of 5 or 10. As far as web novel adaptations goes, their problem is a lot of them aren't well adapted a lot of times (female protag ones fare better than male protag ones it seems) and they screw up in casting, in scripting, in pacing, also damseling the protagonist.

I definitely am being unfair especially since I have limited knowledge on cdramas so I am basing my opinions only to things that a light cdrama watcher like me can reach. If I pick up about 10 random cdramas right now, probably 9 of them would have female leads. But then maybe that is because I do not watch a lot of modern chinese tv shows.

 

But I do believe that the reason female protags fare better is because most of these novels are aimed towards women. And for some reason, female readers like to have female protagonists in the same way male manga readers like to have male protagonist. Unfortunately, in a lot of female story lines, despite the female being the main protag and becoming almost mary suish at times, she still ends up being a damsel in distress along her journeys. And most strong female characters I have met are usually secondary characters in male-centric shows. So yes I am completely biased to my own experience.

 

And I do not really know about casting screw ups.. tRoP so far is the only cdrama series I can say was really well acted, but of course I have not seen like half than most people who watch cdramas

[skibbies]

6 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

I definitely am being unfair especially since I have limited knowledge on cdramas so I am basing my opinions only to things that a light cdrama watcher like me can reach. If I pick up about 10 random cdramas right now, probably 9 of them would have female leads. But then maybe that is because I do not watch a lot of modern chinese tv shows.

 

But I do believe that the reason female protags fare better is because most of these novels are aimed towards women. And for some reason, female readers like to have female protagonists in the same way male manga readers like to have male protagonist. Unfortunately, in a lot of female story lines, despite the female being the main protag and becoming almost mary suish at times, she still ends up being a damsel in distress along her journeys. And most strong female characters I have met are usually secondary characters in male-centric shows. So yes I am completely biased to my own experience.

I want to clarify the stories you mentioned are common in manga, light novels, tv shows etc, and male protagonist ones tend to outnumber female protagonist ones. Anyways only fairly limited amount cdramas gets translated, and the ones that do are the cute light fluffy ones, which yeah feature female leads and romance focused. It has the largest interest and audience amongst drama watcher, though general audience are probably ambivalent to most of them (I am anyways.) 

 

When I say they fare better, I mean the adaptations are more likely to be popular or well received. The former because women are bigger contributer to rating, and more importantly bigger part of fandom (which can get more people into the show and seem more enthused in reccing in general). I think they might be easier to adapt because they are usually romance focused, there are usually less people picking on your historical inaccuracy, occupational errors, and plot holes unless they are huge. The male protag WNs that gets adapted tend to be pretty long, or fantasy based action show, which means they run into pacing problems, action and CG being criticised on top of your usual problems. Although yeah there's more female protag adaptations, and the scriptwriters aren't very good at writing female characters a lot of the times.

 

Tangent, I watched a drama recently that I really liked, it started out as a episodic suspense thriller surface that has human drama at its core, then second half was scifi + conspiracy theory + super powers. The drama itself label them as two season even though there's no break between the season, the focus and pacing was drastically different that it made sense. Anyways, the director revealed that he had to forcibly insert romance and have a main plot (the focus of second season) to get funding. The audience that ended up loving the drama preferred the first season and most didn't care for the romance, l m a o. Investors, don't just replicate what you THINK is successful pls.

[morganian]

19 hours ago, raziela said:

Thanks for your response! I knew my comments would be somewhat controversial!  I think a lot comes back to how miscast I found Chen Kun in the role.  I can overlook a lot of failings in the plot if I'm genuinely invested  and interested in the protagonist and I just wasn't in this 

That is an interesting suggestion. I wonder how Chen Kun would have acted out one of the other roles in the show, ie one of the antagonists? He seems versatile enough. Would he have made Ning Qi more intriguing as a character?

Or the 4th Prince of Dacheng? Sometimes a show is only as good as its antagonist and, judging by the previous comments of this forum, these final antagonists weren't up to scratch. 

[Pollen Ainne]

2 hours ago, skibbies said:

I want to clarify the stories you mentioned are common in manga, light novels, tv shows etc, and male protagonist ones tend to outnumber female protagonist ones. 

I actually meant cdramas that I have access to. But considering all mediums, there are definitely more male protags than female ones. But what stories are we talking about? The rise to godhood/savior-of-the-world kinda thing? Yes, it is pretty common in most mediums with the biggest difference that it usually spans from several volumes even with the light novels, so the story tends to develop where you can see the heart and soul of the character. Even female-centric ones like Akatsuki no Yona (manga) or Saiunkoku Monogatari (light novel) or my personal favorite Hakushaku to Yosei (light novel). I love female protags. 

 

Novels are easier because unless the character is doing something you totally cannot agree with, you can use your imagination at the expressions on their faces. You can also easily read their thoughts. Or if not, you can interpret it the way you like, without another person forcing their own interpretation on you.

 

I think the chinese novels are just as great, I just don't have access to them, so I cannot judge. It is not the story that actually annoys me, more on how they are told in cdramas. This is why I do not associate most dramas/movies with their novel counter parts because they will always be found lacking no matter how faithful. It is like watching someone elses interpretation of the novel you read. So I just judge them as they are, and so far, this rise-to-glory stories with female leads in cdramas have been annoying me. It has nothing to do with the novels that I have not read.  

 

And if we are talking about shounen tropes then omg there are worst kinds out there. Shounen anime especially have a lot of cliches. I steer towards seinen, but they are not perfect either, there is just more there that I like. But yeah I prefer to read...

 

Now if you meant this:

Quote

 Unfortunately, in a lot of female story lines, despite the female being the main protag and becoming almost mary suish at times, she still ends up being a damsel in distress along her journeys. And most strong female characters I have met are usually secondary characters in male-centric shows. So yes I am completely biased to my own experience.

Yes it is the same in all mediums. It just so happens that I have more to choose from in anime and novels than in cdramas as they are more accessible to me. If the tree bears more fruit then there are more fresh pickings even when some are rotten.

 

 

2 hours ago, skibbies said:

Anyways only fairly limited amount cdramas gets translated, and the ones that do are the cute light fluffy ones, which yeah feature female leads and romance focused. It has the largest interest and audience amongst drama watcher, though general audience are probably ambivalent to most of them (I am anyways.)  

You know, this makes perfect sense. I guess I am not gonna see more cdramas like tRoP in the future. But here is to hoping...

 

2 hours ago, skibbies said:

When I say they fare better, I mean the adaptations are more likely to be popular or well received. The former because women are bigger contributer to rating, and more importantly bigger part of fandom (which can get more people into the show and seem more enthused in reccing in general). I think they might be easier to adapt because they are usually romance focused, there are usually less people picking on your historical inaccuracy, occupational errors, and plot holes unless they are huge. The male protag WNs that gets adapted tend to be pretty long, or fantasy based action show, which means they run into pacing problems, action and CG being criticised on top of your usual problems. Although yeah there's more female protag adaptations, and the scriptwriters aren't very good at writing female characters a lot of the times.

Makes sense. It's just unfortunate that the things I enjoy does not have a wider audience. I actually like the glorious royal settings in most chinese stories, something that Japanese historicals lack. I liked the feel of cdrama fantasy too, I don't even care about the CG. It's the characterization that really looses me most of the time. But for some reason tRoP really has all of that. It is amazing.

 

2 hours ago, skibbies said:

Tangent, I watched a drama recently that I really liked, it started out as a episodic suspense thriller surface that has human drama at its core, then second half was scifi + conspiracy theory + super powers. The drama itself label them as two season even though there's no break between the season, the focus and pacing was drastically different that it made sense. Anyways, the director revealed that he had to forcibly insert romance and have a main plot (the focus of second season) to get funding. The audience that ended up loving the drama preferred the first season and most didn't care for the romance, l m a o. Investors, don't just replicate what you THINK is successful pls.

This is true to even Hollywood. I am so frustrated at it but such is the reality of life. Funding is everything and creativity is restricted because studios care more for profitability. Which makes sense as the reason people make movies is for money. There is nothing we can do about it. I am also a huge super hero fan, and I loved Man of Steel and BvS. But it was dark and people didn't like the interpretation of the director or the complicated story that he wove, so we got a light comedy of a Justice League which was a super failure of a movie. They wanted to follow Marvel shows which made a lot of money. But although it had higher critical acclaim, JL ended up with lower box office numbers than the first 2 prequels. And this is the Justice League we are talking about. It's the fall of a childhood dream. lol I give up on the movie industry. 

[whisper1]

PA, sad but true that many otherwise great stories are watered down or trashed in the effort of the sequel,  prequel,  second season mentality. JMO mediocrity  is a sin...win or lose, but go for it. That is what I  love about RotP. They took the risk. 

 

It was mentioned that the back story for BP and Dacheng  were never developed, so the viewer has a hard time investing. But isn't  that the whole point? In the drama we are shown that many of the young citizens don't  know or even remember the previous empire. Part of the tragedy is that the elders insist on having the next generation  sacrifice their love and lives to satisfy their needs...for what? Such a tragic loss.

 

As for me, I  love the flawed alpha male. Hehe I  just do. I enjoy strong female characters  if they are done well, but many times they drift into MS. So RotP is in my wheelhouse since both leads are intriguing and worthy of discussion.

 

 

 

[Pollen Ainne]

3 hours ago, whisper1 said:

It was mentioned that the back story for BP and Dacheng  were never developed, so the viewer has a hard time investing. But isn't  that the whole point? In the drama we are shown that many of the young citizens don't  know or even remember the previous empire. Part of the tragedy is that the elders insist on having the next generation  sacrifice their love and lives to satisfy their needs...for what? Such a tragic loss

Hmmm... I still would have preferred to actually feel something for them... I think the same point would still come out through Zhiwei's suffering... and Nanyi too if they developed him more.

 

3 hours ago, whisper1 said:

As for me, I  love the flawed alpha male. Hehe I  just do. I enjoy strong female characters  if they are done well, but many times they drift into MS. So RotP is in my wheelhouse since both leads are intriguing and worthy of discussion.

Same here. I love flawed, morally gray, smart and manipulative, alpha males. I especially love it when they are complex characters that exhibit contradictory personalities... like kind and cruel at the same time, or selfish and altruistic, and mean yet magnanimous... I find these complexity entertaining... As for females, I like smart and understanding ones, someone who is trustworthy and dependable. Strong in terms of "battle" is a bonus but most importantly is that she is strong at heart, much stronger than the male lead in terms of emotional stability. And courageous. I found all these traits in Zhiwei until the end part... Most importantly, both has to have their own ambitions apart from the romance...

 

The part that Zhiwei really shone to me was when Ning Yi got sick and she wanted to go to him but Hua Qiong stopped her. She actually listened to her advice and wrote Ning Yi a letter instead, encouraging him to be strong. That is my vision of a perfect female lead.

 

It is something like this:

Spoiler

 

[sonosong]

On 11/16/2018 at 10:43 PM, raziela said:

- Chen Kun = Miscast.  It is not good when I am watching the drama and thinking that that some of the other actors in the drama would have done a much better job with the lead character.  I found his portrayal of Ning Yi was wildly inconsistent, unbelievable and unsympathetic.  It almost felt like he filmed  at two different times and changed his mind on how to play the character. He is obviously a very talented actor and some of his scenes were great but at other times I thought he overacted to a ridiculous extent.  It took me completely out of the drama and had me looking at the screen thinking "what is he doing and why?" About halfway through the drama I realised that I didn't even like Ning Yi much. 

Ah, I finally get where you guys are coming from. So you felt he wasn't right for the role? And I guess some of you did feel he hammed it up or just didn't connect with his character overall. (Sorry, didn't feel like going back several pages out of laziness.) Would love to know @raziela what scenes you felt he did great in, and which ones you felt were not-so-great. Oh and which scenes took you out of the drama? I'm always curious to hear differing opinions. I promise you won't be lampooned for it, at least not by me! 

 

23 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

There is only a handful of us who seem to really love the show. Which is the reason why I have accepted the film to be a niche. I really just love the series so I have really strong opinions about it, but my opinions I find are in the minority. 

 

Actually, I feel it’s faring much better on Netflix and with its international audience than it did getting shortchanged on TV in China. So many people worldwide going through Yi-Wei withdrawal right now and begging Netflix for Season 2. My French and Japanese friends are currently obsessed with TRoP, and Chen Kun has been posting in English a lot recently, so I think he's aware that he has a growing fan-base outside of China right now. Also, it put Ni Ni on the map for a lot of people, as they had never seen her before. She already has an audience for her next drama. I know I'll be watching. (Though my heart isn't ready to see her romancing someone else.)

 

[Pollen Ainne]

1 hour ago, sonosong said:

Ah, I finally get where you guys are coming from. So you felt he wasn't right for the role? And I guess some of you did feel he hammed it up or just didn't connect with his character overall. (Sorry, didn't feel like going back several pages out of laziness.) Would love to know @raziela what scenes you felt he did great in, and which ones you felt were not-so-great. Oh and which scenes took you out of the drama? I'm always curious to hear differing opinions. I promise you won't be lampooned for it, at least not by me! 

I would like to know too. And I hope I didn't come in too strong on my last response. I do respect that not everyone has the same opinion, but I also know that I can sound a bit too strong when voicing my own opinions. Please know that I am not looking down on anyone's thoughts, just strongly expressing my own. lol

 

1 hour ago, sonosong said:

Actually, I feel it’s faring much better on Netflix and with its international audience than it did getting shortchanged on TV in China. So many people worldwide going through Yi-Wei withdrawal right now and begging Netflix for Season 2. My French and Japanese friends are currently obsessed with TRoP, and Chen Kun has been posting in English a lot recently, so I think he's aware that he has a growing fan-base outside of China right now. Also, it put Ni Ni on the map for a lot of people, as they had never seen her before. She already has an audience for her next drama. I know I'll be watching. (Though my heart isn't ready to see her romancing someone else.)

That sounds great. I mean... the series itself seem to be getting good feedback, however a lot of cdrama watchers seem to not like it at all...