[Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Rise of Phoenixes 凰权·弈天下

[tendrilsofwind]

 

Yea people used to dub because of accents, but now they dub because so many of the actors can't act. I think this might be the first major show to not dub? It has gotten a lot of praise for it, but unfortunately some complaints as well. I think Chinese people like women's voices to be high pitched so Ni Ni has gotten some flak for her voice. Chen Kun was also criticized for having a Sichuan accent. I couldn't discern an accent, but then again, my mandarin is also slightly accented. I don't really understand the outrage but the internet has some crazy people who are very much opposed to those seeking to change and improve the established standard. Using real voices is really incomparable and conveys a depth of emotion you don't get with dubbing. 

 

However, I will admit that one time I heard a Taiwanese accent when I was watching The Emperor in the Han Dynasty, and I was completely thrown off. Maybe that's what its like for people with perfect, Northern Mandarin when they hear us speak haha 

The actress for Feng Zhiwei's mother does fantastic accent work. She can transition into different local accents beautifully, a much neglected skill in the Chinese industry.

 

A friend of mine also commented on the squeaky factor. I didn't notice either until she brought it up and then I couldn't not hear it. They have a tendency to use the same dubber for all the leads so many female protagonists end up sounding the same. A lot of girls have naturally high voices, but you are right in that the way they are dubbed, it has a strange quality to it.

[Pollen Ainne]

10 minutes ago, tendrilsofwind said:

 

Yea people used to dub because of accents, but now they dub because so many of the actors can't act. I think this might be the first major show to not dub? It has gotten a lot of praise for it, but unfortunately some complaints as well. I think Chinese people like women's voices to be high pitched so Ni Ni has gotten some flack for her voice. Chen Kun was also criticized for having a Sichuan accent. I couldn't discern an accent, but then again, my mandarin is also slightly accented. I don't really understand the outrage but the internet has some crazy people who are very much opposed to those seeking to change and improve established standard. Using real voices is really incomparable and conveys a depth of emotion you don't get with dubbing. 

 

A friend of mine also commented on the squeaky factor. I didn't notice either until she brought it up and then I couldn't not hear it. They have a tendency to use the same dubber for all the leads so many female protagonists end up sounding the same. A lot of girls have naturally high voices, but you are right in that the way they are dubbed, it has a strange quality to it.

Whaaaaaaaaaat? NiNi got flak for her voice? Damn, how can she play a convincing male character with a high pitch voice? Even 18-year-old males would already have gruffer voices. Her having a lower pitch not only helps my ears relax, it also adds credence to her acting out a male role. I do not understand the problem with accents at all. Every country has different accents depending on location, it simply adds to the flavor to me. Most notably with Japan, they have the Kansai dialect which is adorable to my ears. 

 

But if they consider the squeakiness as the norm and anything else bad, then I understand how many voice actors try to imitate it.

[whisper1]

1 hour ago, Pollen Ainne said:

Well, we are talking about it so maybe that's the reason! I don't even know how this topic came about. LOL! Who is the culprit?

 

Btw, as for the squeaky vocals, I actually just went back to listen again to the female voices of tRoP. You are right, Zhiwei does have a deeper voice than normal. But even the noble consort who I expected to sound squeaky actually sounds really good. So I think it might have something to do with the mic being used in a studio or something. I just tried NiF ep 1 (again) and the voices of the concubines/wives of the Emperor were so squeaky to my ears.

The high pitched squeaky voices really bother me too. It makes me write those females off. The important females like FW, her mother, Consort Chang all use a deeper voice.

 

Ning Yi....hard for me to resist,lol. His princely  and regal physicality is on point and hard for many actors to achieve.  NY manipulation  of the costume demonstrates the same royal bearing.

 

His care in handling the silks is a perfect reminder of NYs background as a weaver and the labor required for every inch. And the time spent as a prisoner. 

 

His "lounge " reflects a different type of royal to be sure. Relaxed but powerful he reminded me of a lion or tiger that seems to be resting, but at any moment ready to attack.  When NY refers to FW as a tigress it made me smile "it takes one to know one" as they say lol.

 

And NYS hair is a thing to behold. In fact the hair effects in general are award worthy. Saving my acting observations for later,haha I have to review CK s performance  again, woo

 

The game of GO figures throughout the drama, all I know about it it is a strategy  game, but very different than chess. Could use some help with the basics.

[Pollen Ainne]

40 minutes ago, whisper1 said:

The high pitched squeaky voices really bother me too. It makes me write those females off. The important females like FW, her mother, Consort Chang all use a deeper voice.

 

Ning Yi....hard for me to resist,lol. His princely  and regal physicality is on point and hard for many actors to achieve.  NY manipulation  of the costume demonstrates the same royal bearing.

 

His care in handling the silks is a perfect reminder of NYs background as a weaver and the labor required for every inch. And the time spent as a prisoner. 

 

His "lounge " reflects a different type of royal to be sure. Relaxed but powerful he reminded me of a lion or tiger that seems to be resting, but at any moment ready to attack.  When NY refers to FW as a tigress it made me smile "it takes one to know one" as they say lol.

 

And NYS hair is a thing to behold. In fact the hair effects in general are award worthy. Saving my acting observations for later,haha I have to review CK s performance  again, woo

 

The game of GO figures throughout the drama, all I know about it it is a strategy  game, but very different than chess. Could use some help with the basics.

Yes, Ning Yi's character is awesome in so many ways but if I try to list stuff, I might write an entire essay again, so I will refrain. Suffice it to say that he is the best Prince I have ever encountered in anything drama or otherwise. Even with all the novels I have read and the animes I have seen. If anyone has a Prince they think is better than Ning Yi bring him in now and I shall strike him down. lol!

 

As for Go, I watched the anime Hikaru no Go which is my only link to the game. The game logic is pretty simple, a lot simpler than chess. Though playing it is not as easy (or maybe I am used to chess more). You basically just place your stones with the goal of surrounding your opponent (to capture their stones) or surrounding an area with your stones and taking it as part of your territory. In the end, the winner is the one with more territory (meaning more empty areas surrounded by their stones) and more captures (meaning enemy stones taken).

 

So I was going to use this go board example of Ning Yi loosing to Zhiwei to show how points are calculated, but I am at a total loss...

Nothing in this picture really convinces me that Zhiwei won, unless they just have such considerable foresight on future moves, something that I do not have. Neither Ning Yi or Zhiwei has actually closed off a territory or captured any prisoners. All Ning Yi's stones have liberties... so well... either they didn't think anyone would screen capture it, or they are just too smart to see so many moves ahead. I will try to see if I can get anything that makes actual Go sense in this series.

[skibbies]

The sichuan accent is similar to lot of southern accent where they don't differentiate/confuse z & zh, c & ch etc, and n & l. I can't actually pinpoint where he's from but I can tell he has a slight accent, it doesn't bother me much though. idk where the everyone must speak Standard Mandarin in historical drama come from. Because let's be real, until Ming & Qing dynasty, the capital wouldn't have been in Beijing. Should everyone have Shaanxi or Henan accent? That said, initially it might just be ensuring everyone understand the drama? Like how cdramas just naturally comes with subs because the huge language difference from place to place.

 

I actually really like different accents and dialects. Chinese anime have been using them a fair bit and they bring me so much joy, since I like comparing language difference and find it fun. I'm watching a web drama called Madhouse right now, and it was great they had some villagers speak in accent (some were lot heavier than others!). There's an actor who's from HK, he speaks mandarin most of the time with a HK accent, fairly well I must say. But he gets a lot of tones wrong and I wince a lot. His english and cantonese are fluent and awesome, and have better diction than mandarin, rip dude. 

 

I can't hear the squeaky you are talking about! lol my ears. the only time I found something squeaky is when english voice actors dub anime, and it's specifically anime (or jrpg sometimes I guess), where they try to imitate the japanese seiyuu, they end up being higher pitch than normal, and NO ONE TALKS LIKE THAT, stop.I think it's been better in recent years but I don't really watch eng dub anime so I can't say for sure.

[Pollen Ainne]

Oh, I found the Go report Zhiwei gave to the Emperor and it looks nothing like the game she had with Ning Yi which she said she memorized. 

But this makes more sense. The red marks I made on the board is Zhiwei's territory. The blue X is near Zhiwei's stone that is in atari, meaning it is one move left from being captured, with the X being it's only liberty move left.

 

What is funny is that once the camera scrolls out, the go board looks different and more similar to the game she had with Ning Yi.

It looks like someone just randomly placed those stones. It looks like there are more white stones than black stones on that board which makes no sense unless most of the black stones have been captured in which case more territories would have formed already...  If someone else can explain the intelligence in those moves, please correct me.

 

 

50 minutes ago, skibbies said:

I can't hear the squeaky you are talking about! lol my ears. the only time I found something squeaky is when english voice actors dub anime, and it's specifically anime (or jrpg sometimes I guess), where they try to imitate the japanese seiyuu, they end up being higher pitch than normal, and NO ONE TALKS LIKE THAT, stop.I think it's been better in recent years but I don't really watch eng dub anime so I can't say for sure.

I never watch dubs too. I believe that aesthetically, ones original language is better suited to the drama or anime it comes from. I don't want to see Japanese Samurais speaking in English or Chinese Emperors doing the same. It sounds silly to me. Even with modern anime and drama, I think language and setting is important for immersion. The culture difference is huge, it helps to know that what you are viewing has a totally different background.

[GiaGia]

Aww ep 42 towards the end was so bittersweet between ZW and NY!! I cannot believe she revealed herself as a woman, even though I know that the emperor and obviously the storyline is not going to keep her secret identity from not revealing.

 

I love NY's nickname for ZW, she is his little raccoon, and raccoon like that of cats have 9 lives, and so she cannot die easily!! I think this is the most romantic and sweetest line ever say in Chinese traditional drama :)!!! I also starting to have second-lead syndrome with Prince Helieng, the actor is handsome!!! He is tall and portrays PH very well. Dang, I can only imagined what life is like back in those old times, how scary it is that you can easily gain the emperor's favorite, and he can easily just take it back without any second thoughts too. 

Prince Qi is not thinking straight, he is in lust for the throne too!! arrrghhh I thought he was going to be a good guy???? 

[sonosong]

3 hours ago, rosierosie said:

Prince Qi is not thinking straight, he is in lust for the throne too!! arrrghhh I thought he was going to be a good guy???? 

I knew he was after the throne since the beginning because Ning Yi mentioned to Xin Ziyan that Ning Qi "came to court prepared." Ziyan then replied that they both know what Ning Qi is after, so it's best not to underestimate him. I kind of feel bad for him though, as I do for all the Princes to some degree. I mean, his father practically banished him to the border at a young age and forgot all about his mother. He has absolutely no real, tangible relationship with his father. Just like his mother, I don't think Ning Shizheng will ever truly love him like a father should his son. He is quite unhinged though.

 

@skibbies Thank you for the wonderful and detailed insights into the censorship issue. While I can understand, I wish I could have seen the series the way it was originally intended for the audience. I don't understand why heavy violence is OK in historical dramas (I'm talking about you Nirvana in Fire), but not a line like, "I'm the law." It's in context of the drama, and creativity shouldn't be stunted by political agendas.

 

@Pollen Ainne I've played Go online myself, but I'm really bad at it. Thank your for doing the screenshots. Like you said, they probably didn't expect people to notice. I personally didn't notice it myself because I was busy trying to read the subtitles. 

[Pollen Ainne]

3 hours ago, sonosong said:

 

@Pollen Ainne I've played Go online myself, but I'm really bad at it. Thank your for doing the screenshots. Like you said, they probably didn't expect people to notice. I personally didn't notice it myself because I was busy trying to read the subtitles. 

The problem with the internet is, it is to be expected that someone will notice. And since they planned to show it on Netflix, they should have been more careful. Not that I noticed until someone asked about it. lol. But some Go players might. It would not be so hard to place a legit game into the board. But it's a very little thing.

[sonosong]

21 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

Wow, Ning Yi definitely is a fantasy. He even is fantastically pure. I can just imagine having this convo with my boyfriend. He would roll his eyes so much they would fall off.

This made me LOL so hard. And, sorry, I think I was the culprit who drove the conversation in the wrong direction.

 

On a serious note, I can actually buy into that "purity." I've been in a relationship with someone who was into a "cause". (Read: Student activist) He dedicated himself to it, and romance was the last thing on his mind. There are some men who are very dedicated to a certain goal, and that goal will consume their entire being. They don't necessarily make great lovers unfortunately.

Fortunately for Ning Yi, although he may have been consumed by his quest for justice, his meeting with Zhiwei must have triggered something. That eyebrow raise and smirk he gave her when she bid him farewell in Episode 3(?) should have subtitles. It was like those untapped emotions that lay dormant were finally awakened.

[Pollen Ainne]

1 hour ago, sonosong said:

This made me LOL so hard. And, sorry, I think I was the culprit who drove the conversation in the wrong direction.

 

On a serious note, I can actually buy into that "purity." I've been in a relationship with someone who was into a "cause". (Read: Student activist) He dedicated himself to it, and romance was the last thing on his mind. There are some men who are very dedicated to a certain goal, and that goal will consume their entire being. They don't necessarily make great lovers unfortunately.

Fortunately for Ning Yi, although he may have been consumed by his quest for justice, his meeting with Zhiwei must have triggered something. That eyebrow raise and smirk he gave her when she bid him farewell in Episode 3(?) should have subtitles. It was like those untapped emotions that lay dormant were finally awakened.

And that is what makes Ning Yi a fantasy. I too have met people who seem immune to the "pleasures of life". lol. But as you said, they are usually driven by something else entirely. They barely have time to romance the person they love, that is if they actually do fall in love. Ning Yi is different in the sense that he seem to be immune to everyone but completely attracted to Zhiwei. As skibbies said before, he must be demisexual. However, he seemed to be extremely attracted to Zhiwei in a physical sense long before he had a strong connection with her. The only explanation is fantasy.

[skibbies]

7 hours ago, sonosong said:

I@skibbies Thank you for the wonderful and detailed insights into the censorship issue. While I can understand, I wish I could have seen the series the way it was originally intended for the audience. I don't understand why heavy violence is OK in historical dramas (I'm talking about you Nirvana in Fire), but not a line like, "I'm the law." It's in context of the drama, and creativity shouldn't be stunted by political agendas.

They also cut a lot of things to pop out the main plot more but it just left a very flaw product. Heavy violence and gore are actually censored, there's been web dramas taken down and never reuploaded, but NiF didn't fall under that. You are allowed "twisted" characters like Chang Zhong Xin (Chang Yuan's second son),  but they can't be a main character, and probably can't be an empeor. I get the vague sense that he's doomed for tragedy because he's an emperor too, not just because power corrupts, or you lose a lot to get there, but because singing praises to fedual system doesn't mash with their values but this is speculation.

 

21 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

I never watch dubs too. I believe that aesthetically, ones original language is better suited to the drama or anime it comes from. I don't want to see Japanese Samurais speaking in English or Chinese Emperors doing the same. It sounds silly to me. Even with modern anime and drama, I think language and setting is important for immersion. The culture difference is huge, it helps to know that what you are viewing has a totally different background.

I agree about language being part of immersion into the medium. I appreciate the efforts to localise but sometimes it's rather jarring. Like in the game series Ace Attorney, it features Japanese mysticism, but the localised team made it so it's set in California? and changed their "let's go out for ramen" to burgers which is kind of confusing tbh. There's anime that's set in foreign country, like Baccano is set in Roaring Twenties US, gets highly recommended for its english. I still gave up after half an episode because my brain heavily associate the art style with Japanese AND they don't come with subs. I need subs!! I don't care if I understand the language, give me subs!!!! It's a habit thing, I'm bad with listening and sometimes space out in the middle of watching stuff, no subs is torture.

 

About Go, I have no idea why they have mistakes there, or why Xin Ziyan can't hold the stones properly, because they have Go players on set. I think Chen Kun knows how to play, and the co-director do as well (the guy playing the 4th prince, the one who broke his leg in the documentary), so you'd think they paid attention. 

[Pollen Ainne]

26 minutes ago, skibbies said:

I agree about language being part of immersion into the medium. I appreciate the efforts to localise but sometimes it's rather jarring. Like in the game series Ace Attorney, it features Japanese mysticism, but the localised team made it so it's set in California? and changed their "let's go out for ramen" to burgers which is kind of confusing tbh. There's anime that's set in foreign country, like Baccano is set in Roaring Twenties US, gets highly recommended for its english. I still gave up after half an episode because my brain heavily associate the art style with Japanese AND they don't come with subs. I need subs!! I don't care if I understand the language, give me subs!!!! It's a habit thing, I'm bad with listening and sometimes space out in the middle of watching stuff, no subs is torture.

 

About Go, I have no idea why they have mistakes there, or why Xin Ziyan can't hold the stones properly, because they have Go players on set. I think Chen Kun knows how to play, and the co-director do as well (the guy playing the 4th prince, the one who broke his leg in the documentary), so you'd think they paid attention. 

You are so right about the language. I also hate it when they westernize or vice versa a particular show to adapt to a particular audience. I think people are already open minded enough to try and understand a show enough to appreciate it despite the cultural differences. Movie makers tend to look down on their viewers intelligence and interest sometimes. And in the end the adaptations end up flopping, I am looking at you Dragon Ball, monstrous atrocity you!!! And I don't even want to talk about Netfix's Death Note.

 

Back on topic, I also totally noticed Xin Ziyan not holding the stones properly. I didn't want to say it, because I thought it might sound petty and mean, but since you mentioned it (yes I am blaming you, lol), I can't believe no one corrected him on that. As a scholar, shouldn't he be really good at it? He looked like it was his first time playing. And as for the stones, they could have copied a Go board from an original game. It's not that hard. Hikaru no Go actually just copies most of it's plays from real live game plays. I was hoping that all the nuances that NIng Yi made using the Go board to communicate with his father is actually on the board itself. I was actually thinking of checking those out at one time. But I guess, it's not really there.

[tendrilsofwind]

2 hours ago, Pollen Ainne said:

Back on topic, I also totally noticed Xin Ziyan not holding the stones properly. I didn't want to say it, because I thought it might sound petty and mean, but since you mentioned it (yes I am blaming you, lol), I can't believe no one corrected him on that. As a scholar, shouldn't he be really good at it? He looked like it was his first time playing. And as for the stones, they could have copied a Go board from an original game. It's not that hard. Hikaru no Go actually just copies most of it's plays from real live game plays. I was hoping that all the nuances that NIng Yi made using the Go board to communicate with his father is actually on the board itself. I was actually thinking of checking those out at one time. But I guess, it's not really there.

 

I honestly have no idea why not a single show manages to showcase Go correctly. It's especially important here because Ning Yi's name literally refers to playing a game of Go. His matches with his father are also supposed to emphasize this competition that has forever existed between them, transitioning at times from just within the game to their real power struggle. 

 

Also does anyone have a high quality picture of Ning Yi with his hair down, sprawled in the walkway (I guess in English it might be cloisters?) dressed all in white underclothes? The one where he is soaked in the light seeping through the carved window. I think it's one of the scenes where he is in a drug induced haze.

[morganian]

3 hours ago, tendrilsofwind said:

 

I honestly have no idea why not a single show manages to showcase Go correctly. It's especially important here because Ning Yi's name literally refers to playing a game of Go. His matches with his father are also supposed to emphasize this competition that has forever existed between them, transitioning at times from just within the game to their real power struggle. 

 

Also does anyone have a high quality picture of Ning Yi with his hair down, sprawled in the walkway (I guess in English it might be cloisters?) dressed all in white underclothes? The one where he is soaked in the light seeping through the carved window. I think it's one of the scenes where he is in a drug induced haze.

Chen Kun and the co-director might have been able to play go but maybe the editors do not. Thankfully, I don't know enough about Go be annoyed at these inconsistencies, but it does seem at odds with all of the detail that has gone into the set, costume design, sound effects, etc. 

 

Why on earth do you want a photo of crazy Ning Yi? Lol. 

[skibbies]

@Pollen Ainne I watch a lot of manga live action adaptation, I still wouldn't touch Dragon Ball with 10 foot pole. Netflix Death Note should have just been called something else, it might have been passable.

 

The holding stone thing is so obvious!! It's like first thing you learn with Go, I can't ignore it!! also because everyone else holds it properly, it's jarring. I think they might have copied old games...? Or made modifications to them? The one emperor and zhiwei is playing have a base I think, I recall cnetizen talking about it but it flew over my head, now I can't find it anymore orz. The drama explains all the important Go games's purpose, albeit in a roundabout way sometimes.

 

The editor definitely might have miscutted the Go games, I have fair bit of gripes with this drama's editing at times.

[Pollen Ainne]

5 hours ago, tendrilsofwind said:

Also does anyone have a high quality picture of Ning Yi with his hair down, sprawled in the walkway (I guess in English it might be cloisters?) dressed all in white underclothes? The one where he is soaked in the light seeping through the carved window. I think it's one of the scenes where he is in a drug induced haze.

It's in episode 16, 8mins and 31secs into the show. But there is no perfect shot of it. The camera doesn't focus on Ning Yi and even when I paused it per second, there is no visually appealing frame at all. But below is him when he was talking to Ning Cheng afterwards.

 

 

And btw, he wasn't crazy at all during this time.

 

35 minutes ago, skibbies said:

@Pollen Ainne I watch a lot of manga live action adaptation, I still wouldn't touch Dragon Ball with 10 foot pole. Netflix Death Note should have just been called something else, it might have been passable.

 

The holding stone thing is so obvious!! It's like first thing you learn with Go, I can't ignore it!! also because everyone else holds it properly, it's jarring. I think they might have copied old games...? Or made modifications to them? The one emperor and zhiwei is playing have a base I think, I recall cnetizen talking about it but it flew over my head, now I can't find it anymore orz. The drama explains all the important Go games's purpose, albeit in a roundabout way sometimes.

 

The editor definitely might have miscutted the Go games, I have fair bit of gripes with this drama's editing at times.

They could have called it Death Note still, but in an alternate reality, with completely different characters and storyline. But oh well...

 

As for Go, if you mean the focused board shot, then definitely it has base. And presuming that Zhiwei played the way Ning Yi did, then it makes some sense in the context of the story. But the out of focus board shot made no sense to me whatsoever. The one where Ning Yi supposedly lost to Zhiwei was worse. That shot was taken before Ning Yi shook his head and admitted his loss. Like what? Are you giving up too early? The board is like almost empty... lol!

 

And I will not say more about Xin ZIyan's Go because he did really great in everything else. So I forgive him. lol!

 

Oh and btw, I saw this review on Youtube. 

I love this reviewer.  She is so on point!

[GiaGia]

Ep 45 was so sweet to see. NY and ZW's romance time before the storm. It was so cute to see them snuggle to each other and hold each other for warmth inside the cave :)!!!!! The character of Prince Helieng is entertaining, the character is nice to watch because it is nice to see a male character acting not so serious sometimes. This reminds me to mention that NY cries a lot in the drama, and also his assistant Ning Cheng too.....I feel like there is a lot of crying here for the lead male role or the male characters here, I am not complaining, but I feel like I don't see any other lead character cries as much as NY....he cries so beautiful too :). And the way he holds or pull Headmaster Xinyin's hand is something that I don't see in other drama. Their relationship is cute and funny. 

[sonosong]

8 hours ago, morganian said:

Why on earth do you want a photo of crazy Ning Yi? Lol. 

Because he looked absolutely gorgeous bathed in that swatch of sunlight? Kekeke. There should be an official photo of it somewhere. This was a beautiful shot, seriously. (But I should not be on Netflix at work lol oops.)

[Pollen Ainne]

27 minutes ago, sonosong said:

Because he looked absolutely gorgeous bathed in that swatch of sunlight? Kekeke. There should be an official photo of it somewhere. This was a beautiful shot, seriously. (But I should not be on Netflix at work lol oops.)

lol! I felt like he looked like a religious symbol. lol! And his face isn't clear. I would have preferred it shot from a different angle. But now that I think about it, the dark corridor on the left does give and interesting contrast. I am always at Netflix at work. And on soompi. And on youtube. It's part of my job. lol!