[Drama 2017] Criminal Minds 크리미널 마인드

[leesopark16]

Wow... such an heavy and sad episode so early in the show. Tragedy after tragedy the characters don't catch a break  Cheer up to the team and fans here and we shall wait anxiously for the next disaster to come. Next case looks like bio terrorism sort of ? Sound interesting.

[lovelyrainy]

Just found this, it's not really related to our drama but in some way, it is lol, nevertheless I'll put it in spoiler

Spoiler

Apparently Go Yoon, actor who plays Lee Han is Kim Moo Sung's son, a very dislikable politician. Now I have no prejudice against him, his father's another story and has nothing to do with GY but if people watch CM and recognize him, I hope they won't let their hatred toward Kim Moo Sung affect their view on GY and his work.

You can see what kind of person Kim Moo Sung is in this video and here https://qz.com/990532/a-viral-video-of-a-politician-kim-moo-sung-and-his-suitcase-shows-whats-wrong-with-male-entitlement-in-south-korea/ .

 

 

[leesopark16]

Ratings are up : AGB Nielsen National 2.995, Seoul Area 3.679.

Slight increase and almost crossing 3% again, I'm relieved  I have good hopes for next week.

[violina]

2 hours ago, leesopark16 said:

Ratings are up : AGB Nielsen National 2.995, Seoul Area 3.679.

Slight increase and almost crossing 3% again, I'm relieved  I have good hopes for next week.

Oh yeah!!! it feels like we are at a football match lol.. we might us well cheat and round off to the nearest whole number..its a 3..hahaha kidding but still:

Lets hope we continue progressing...until next week..fighting everyone...

 

[antoniaclamens]

I promise myself i will never let my imagination fly. Poor LH ruined KH's conversation with the killer and his wife for me!

Spoiler

After he took off his jacket all i could think was of Yoona. I couldn´t focus on the scene while watching raw... at least with subs i tryed to follow them and forget about Yoona,, Totally spoiled such an intense and painful scene. mad at myself

 

I found this episode a strong one, but the killings were too much for me. Especially when the reaper atacked the agent, they showed so much, the reaper did so much, the first time (raw) it took me by surprise. the second time i decided not to watch. there were two things that seemed off to me:

Spoiler

 

1.- when HJ said that the little girl smelled like mint, how KH discovered so fast who was the reaper? i didn´t get it

2.- HB reaction. i'm ok with him being a little boy that's not afraid of strangers... but when his mother was crying like that and the reaper said he was going to kill his mother and him,  he must have been afraid... and when he saw his father covered with blood, he must have been afraid. he should be crying too. At least he cryed when her mother was cremated

there were few things i enjoyed in this episode, and @jeonghyang made them into gifs already: SW being badass and HJ smiling in surprise recognition. HJ motorcycle sequence (pose and all).  Of course i couldn´t enjoy the killings, they were so brutal. was all nail bitting. Great acting from SHJ.

oh another thing.. SW is supossed to be a good profiler, when the reaper was telling her the story about his parents, she must have realized that the man wasn´t normal before the incident with the reaper! she must have suspected that something was wrong. I didn´t noticed at first but when i watched the episode with subs the man scared me..

Finally: he already escape from jail?!

 

 

[Chellsee]

Official still from Namooactors. 

[lovelyrainy]

@antoniaclamens the Reaper ate mint candy when he talked with Ki Hyung, and even with Sun Woo, he always grabbed that mint candy box. KH also figured out by remember the story about the curl up finger of the Reaper's gf.

Now is my pov. Such a  tragic episode, that's being said, I don't know how to feel about this episode.

• Sun Woo is a real deal, I love her action scene thought it was too short, hope more to come in the future.
• I'm familiar with Kim Won Hae (the Reaper) so even though I didn't watch the original, I already predicted who he could be. He's a good actor and I knew there's no way they casted him just to be the almost died victim. So yeah, it kinda spoiled the fun for me. It also looks like they make him the main villain of this remake, seeing how he escaped at the end
• Again, I don't like how they used 2 mins at the beginning to repeat ep 3

 

The logic bugged me too (maybe I'm the illogical one here so if anyone can correct me, I'm pleased to be enlightened): 

• Dialogue problem: the writer added too manly typical dumb situations/ reactions/ lines in K-dramas. In this episode, when the computers at NCI were hacked, Nana's supposed to be a tech expert but she got panicked in a very stupid way, the only thing she did was saying basically "omg we got hacked". She didn't even know it was the usb until HJ pointed out and Lee Han then took a look at her laptop. It'd have been better to let her find out about the usb and explained what she tried to recover the system instead.
• Why didn't Ki Hyung know his wife's new number? I know it's witness protection program but shouldn't he at least be informed about it?
• While Ki Hyung was on the run for his wife, the NCI team were standing there, doing nothing. Absolutely nothing, at first I thought maybe they're too far away from his house and it's useless even if they tried. However, it doesn't seem like the case. Remember when Ki Hyung arrived, found the Reaper, had a fight with him and NCI team charged in? They departed AFTER the entire phone call of Ki Hyung & the Reaper ended but arrived only a little later than Ki Hyung, That means they're closer to the house, even if they couldn't make it, shouldn't at least 2 of them tried something instead of just standing there exclaiming about the conversation?

 

I sound too critical today lol, true is I like this episode, it's just these few points bother me

[zi4r]

Wow. It's quite quiet in here. I won't be posting tonight & the whole of tomorrow (Friday for me). Taking a much needed break from my CM craze, because hubby is starting to feel this as the repeat of my MLSHR addiction... and I wanna continue my CM run till the end. I'll be back on Saturday (my timezone).

I still haven't backread anything, except for @lovelyrainy's post above this one. And I couldn't resist responding (which is why I needa stay away from Soompi!!! )

 

Anyway, about your three criticisms....

1 hour ago, lovelyrainy said:

Dialogue problem: the writer added too manly typical dumb situations/ reactions/ lines in K-dramas. In this episode, when the computers at NCI were hacked, Nana's supposed to be a tech expert but she got panicked in a very stupid way, the only thing she did was saying basically "omg we got hacked". She didn't even know it was the usb until HJ pointed out and Lee Han then took a look at her laptop. It'd have been better to let her find out about the usb and explained what she tried to recover the system instead.

It's not just dialogue problem. The script-dialogue-directing-editing all keep making NCI team members oscillate between seeming extremely smart & extremely dumb. Anyone (even the lowest level tech) who works IT in a large firm (not even govt facility, any firm) would know this. USBs are easily programmable. Therefore, you NEVER stick an unknown USB (even if you feel it's from a friendly source) into your main system, especially not into a system that is connected to network AND database. What you do is explore it in a confined "junk" machine to figure out what's in there, and incrementally assess & transfer out the data.

BUT! Please take note. This is a persisting problem in the US version too. I feel as if the writers of TV series/dramas just hope & pray that the audience won't be smart enough to figure out such issues. Given the length of run-time in which each case has to be set up and resolved...... I guess, we cannot expect the quality of a movie-length crime thriller.

Of course, as you said, the dialogue made NNH seem even stupider. But well, maybe she was in a panic and wasn't thinking straight. She's no field agent who can withstand sudden pressure. I can forgive her for this. (But that's because I'm trying to be really kind. Her character description says she's a white hacker. Hmm... A hacker who cannot deal with sudden pressure & who easily panics? That's just plain dumb writing.)

 

1 hour ago, lovelyrainy said:

Why didn't Ki Hyung know his wife's new number? I know it's witness protection program but shouldn't he at least be informed about it?

This is entirely normal. (Not sure about Korea but) In every country I've lived in, witness protection programs don't usually allow the people under protection to have ANY connection/contact with their "previous life". They almost always have to cut ties even with close family.

It would have been nice if the sending-off-to-witness-protection part happens AFTER the hacking. If so, the situation would be a lot more fitting. TL Kang's info/security is compromised. Even NCI is compromised too. Then, ensuring no contact/connection between TL Kang & his family will be the logical way to keep the family safe. That's why I have a problem with the Reaper case happening too fast. 1-episode length is not enough for them to show the pressure TL Kang feels. If they stretch it out, we will realize that the Reaper's threat is relentless and TL Kang has no choice but to cut himself off family, hence witness protection program.

But once the witness protection program has come into play, the "having no contact with anyone from previous life" is kinda the default position. So the fact that TL Kang doesn't know his wife's number isn't a logical problem in the script.

 

1 hour ago, lovelyrainy said:

While Ki Hyung was on the run for his wife, the NCI team were standing there, doing nothing. Absolutely nothing, at first I thought maybe they're too far away from his house and it's useless even if they tried. However, it doesn't seem like the case. Remember when Ki Hyung arrived, found the Reaper, had a fight with him and NCI team charged in? They departed AFTER the entire phone call of Ki Hyung & the Reaper ended but arrived only a little later than Ki Hyung, That means they're closer to the house, even if they couldn't make it, shouldn't at least 2 of them tried something instead of just standing there exclaiming about the conversation?

Erm... I think you saw it wrong. They were not standing in the NCI office. They were standing on the bus. The bus is moving & chasing after TL Kang.

These express buses can be pretty dang fast! But I don't know whether the cars would have been faster. Anyway, I'm not gonna nit-pick on that. The point I'm making is..... they arrived a little while after TL Kang because they were already on the moving bus that  was chasing after TL Kang's movements.

 

I've watched the episode only once streaming and once with subs. So I might be wrong about what I just wrote. The drama does need a few watches to get all the connections.

Ok, soompians! I'm off to bed.

[ashty]

On 7/24/2017 at 1:10 PM, agnesselvira said:

Dear @mulberry9 @LyraYoo @zi4rdo you know where i can watching CM when it's airing? can you give me link for live streaming ?

Click this
➡➡Http://m.tving.com/live/C00551
.
** This site generates online ratings

** #Make_Sure you are Log-In before you watch, to count your views and to prevent many advertisement.
** Log-in through facebook or Twitter, then enter email and korea number: 010-1234-1234 (copy it) or make your own number.
** korea number start on: 010/ 011/ 016/ 017/ 019/ 032/ 042/ 051/ 052/ 053/ 054 055 then put any 8 digit numbers you want.
** can also watch previous episodes, check replay schedules.
.
** CHECK YOUR TIME ZONE DIFFERENCE
because its Live broadcast

For English Subtitles it broadcast the next day. The only licensed streaming I know is VIU. Download VIU apps in your mobile phone and you can watch Criminal Minds in Viu apps with english subtitles and HD quality. 

[ashty]

Official Live Streaming site of Criminal Minds. 

Http://m.tving.com/live/C00551

Please check Time Zone difference because its Live broadcast. Make sure you Log-in before watching to count your views and to prevent many advertisements. Log-in through facebook or Twitter and put email and korea number. Korea number should start in 010 then put any 8digit number. Thanks

[glassnokamen]

Today Vlive BTS is available here

http://www.vlive.tv/video/37718

[leesopark16]

Yeah I agree about NNH not being able to figure out the problem herself was off since she is the expert in that area.

And another thing about reaching the house - why didn't they call for the local police ? They could have got there before them, no ?

[skinnerbox]

I'm really mad, these episodes were nothing like the premiere, the profiling flew out of the window, the team did nothing and three people got murdered while they watched from their screen. Things were too obvious like the mint candy, please! every one can eat mints but a little suspicion. Then the hacking, like even I know not to connect unknown devices least of all in your main computer and Nana's a pro! TL Kang didn't have a system worked with his wife so she didn't believe a random dude so she got tricked, plus she didn't try to call Sun-woo? His boss? Someone reliable? And if your family is in danger you don't send them away with one agent and leave it at that, nor leave your own house without protection, that could have saved his wife. And they should have anticipated that the killer was going to lure the wife to their house, they realized way too late. 

In all the team sucks! I want more of the first two episodes and more action, less horrible phone calls. 

I still have hope for the next case. Please! Let the team do something, they're good! 

[Uniform Victory]

4 hours ago, leesopark16 said:

And another thing about reaching the house - why didn't they call for the local police ? They could have got there before them, no ?

 

NCI are police themselves & the most elite unit to speak of. Also, there are already 5 of them on the way to TLKang's house; 4 in the moving bus and 1 in a separate car. Besides, I doubt that the local police would have faster response time than the NCI team. Of course, they are dealing with high profile killer here so getting more parties involved could make this incident into a circus and that's the very least they want to happen.

 

3 hours ago, skinnerbox said:

In all the team sucks! I want more of the first two episodes and more action, less horrible phone calls. 

 

 

They probably shorten all the action scenes maybe because of the "too actiony" comments.    I'd say they should keep the action scenes at full length because there are only 1 or two scenes each episode anyway. Also, the actions scenes are the strong points in this series & improvements from the original series. So why cut the good bit?

The Reaper is a sophisticated and high caliber killer who has been doing his killing spree for decades & was left unidentified during those times. The fact that this team identified the reaper shows how good this team is.  If it's actual practice, identifying the killer in a short time is just too good to be true.

I watched the episode twice already.. the profiling is fine. I think the subtitles are all in layman terms which does not sound like CM profiling at all. At least the subtitle should keep the usual CM terms like: instead of pattern = use MO(modus operandi), unsub(for suspect or unknown suspect), organized or disorganized when describing the killers MO & other CM terms.

Also, I think in reality or actual practice, profiling is not the main part of the whole investigation process. As explained in the first few episodes, they use it when there are no suspects or unknown & when the investigation seemed like in the dead end. The profilers comes in & give investigators leads to start their investigation. Catching the real suspects here doesn't mean the culprit will at all times receive prison sentence but rather it's the beginning of the investigators job. In reality, the culprit may not be indicted at all due to lack of evidence. So from the profilers job, investigators will still have a lot of work to do gathering evidences both prima facie (actual) & circumstantial. I am not an expert but I have very little knowledge of it.

About Hyun Jun - I think there's something in his past that made him join the Violent Crimes unit of the police but seemed like he is at the dead end. So I think it's also one of the reason why he accepted the offer of the NCI. Hyun Jun & Sun Woo are probably sharing the same sentiments here.

Another point to remember in this drama, the team also only comes in the investigation when there is a formal request from the local police.

(Please don't get confused with profilers & investigators. Profilers are investigators themselves but they use different methodology in their investigation. While Investigators, I was referring to the usual or field investigators.)

 

 

 

[40somethingahjumma]

I guess this is really a K drama after all.  It went for the guts in terms of not pulling any kind of emotional punches. If I hadn't been upset enough by the wife's murder, seeing the pre-made ties on the rack really got me going. At least we have a sense that this show isn't afraid to do what it takes to get people's attention. If the main intention of this episode was to get us all riled up, they certainly succeeded. 

I imagine I have no real expectations of this show and I've probably seen enough Korean cop shows over the years to know that they're not particularly strong on the procedural side of things so I'm just along for the ride.

Although the theme that the victim becomes the victimizer isn't particularly Korean, it is something that I've found to be an ongoing concern in recent K police procedurals. Because TL Kang is personally affected by a crime so early in the series, the underlying message right from the start seems to be that unless someone has been faced with crime and been a victim, it's not possible to empathize with someone who has been one. By extension unless an investigator has first experience as a victim of crime, it's all an intellectual exercise for him. He can talk big game and play mind games with the unsub but there's an emotional side to crime that's not all about the "science" or even the "art". I imagine that's the approach that they intend to take with this adaptation and it's fairly consistent with how most K cop shows go.

The metaphysical side to this story grabbed me instantly. The smug wickedness of the reaper in all his dealings was horrifying. I was literally feeling evil emanating from his face. The Dostoevsky quote from The Brothers Karamazov is instructive and provides a key to understanding the episode. “I think the devil doesn't exist, but man has created him, he has created him in his own image and likeness.” The question that comes up in light of this is: If that's the case, why have they created the devil? To justify their crimes? To frighten themselves into good behaviour. I suppose the underlying assumption from that is that man has created the devil to explain evil in the world when evil fundamentally begins and ends with humans. 

Here I think of a line from Milton's Paradise Lost: "The mind is its own place, and in itself/Can make a heav'n of hell, a hell of heav'n."

In light of that I am reminded of CS Lewis, who wrote in The Screwtape Letters, "There are two and equal opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them."

Lewis assumes they exist and they can deceive, manipulate through disbelief and excessive curiosity. One thing they are all agreed on is perniciousness of evil whatever its source. It's all too easy to fall into it with its corrupting, destructive influence. 

Why do people make deals with the devil? In fiction it's always been about some short-term earthly gain to be had. The devil is an all powerful creature who can grant wishes but wants a soul in return. The previous police chief did make the deal to protect his family. But when it was time for him to die, his Mephistopheles aka The Reaper came to collect his soul. This reaper makes a sport of collecting "souls" while terrifying his pursuers into making deals with him. In this activity he finds his superiority over them. He also collects their trinkets which he takes to his next soul collection. He not only plays games with our investigators but taunts them over their helplessness because he knows the weakness found in their earthly affections. He is evil personified and no science is capable of defeating him.

The reaper here talks about the abyss, which could be another term for hell. Once you get in, you can't get out. So what does he do when can't get out? Like Satan in Paradise Lost:

Here we may reign secure, and in my choice
to reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.

In hindsight it might appear that TL Kang would have been better off dealing with the devil. His wife would be still alive and his son would not be motherless. But then he might always be looking over his shoulder wondering when while the devil would always have supremacy over his soul.

[dforte]

I shouldn't be doing this. I have work today and not much time. And I was hoping to wait till there are more reaction posts here about Episode 4 before I comment on it. But I am itching to respond to the criticisms the last episode is receiving. So here are my thoughts at 3am in the morning. I apologize for haphazardness and any mistakes made.

I am going to split my thoughts into three two different posts to keep the length manageable. One post for the train case. One for the Reaper. One for episodes 1-4 overall and ratings. (I have decided to wait till after next week episodes for this.)

One thing I won't write about at all: the team bonding and dinner at Teamleader house. Since I have no knowledge of korean culture and personal interactions, I cannot pass judgment on those scenes in an objective way. In my POV though, those scenes are a bit 'off'. That's all I'll say to that.

Before I write any further, here are the names I will be using.

• Cast: JG, CW, SHJ. I won't be talking about others.
• Characters: TL for teamleader, HJ, SW, Genius, NNH, Media girl, Chief.

I'm quoting a lot of posts here. To keep the post organized, some long or multiple quotes are in spoiler tags.

-----

The 'train' case

I have three major criticisms.

• Logical problems and script issues. Especially about the imaginary friend. I won't elaborate on it, because it has been fully explored here. (very long quote inside spoiler tag)

Spoiler

On 8/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, zi4r said:

1) Dialogue/Script problems

I feel as if the writer needs some help. It's like, no one is looking through and beta-ing her work to ensure consistency and believability of the script. Most of the issues are minor, but they disrupt the flow of the cases, which is really annoying & disconcerting for the drama quality. (The criticisms are going to be detailed so I'm putting most of them in spoiler tags.)

• Figuring out about the criminal-on-the-run

  Hide contents

NCI team is made up of extremely smart people. Yet, when they first talked about the unidentified person on the train-car, the dialogue made them sound so damn dumb.

Just think about it. They know that a criminal-on-the-run is hiding on the train. But the team took several lines of unnecessary dialogue to figure out who the unidentified man on the train-car is!

• Skipping over TL Kang's reasoning of "person-in-charge"

  Hide contents

SW said the unsub was asking to talk to the "person-in-charge". From that little sentence, TL Kang straightaway knew how to trick the unsub. So unbelievable!

All they needed to do was include 1 more line. Either SW or the non-NCI hostage-negotiator could've said it. "I/The hostage negotiator has talked to him and assured him that we have the authority to get him what he wants. But he insists on getting a real person-in-charge/person-of-power." Then, TL Kang can figure out what the guy wants..... some high-position government official.

• Why not SWAT?

  Hide contents

One might say, it's common sense. There are hostages..... SWAT might put them in danger.

But really? Is sending in an amateur magician and a brand-new NCI agent a safer option?

All they needed to do was spout some tactical details. How they cannot place good sniper positions. How the position of the train-car makes it tactically improbable for a safe attack. Something.... anything..... Rather than what we got: Nothing. No explanation whatsoever.

• Skipping over reasoning of "microchip"

  Hide contents

(I know that the US version made the same jump to conclusion. It was an equally "huh?" moment there.)

A man has cuts on his arms... Therefore, he must think that there's a microchip inside himself. Huh? Is that the only conclusion?

But this is also easily fixed. Just talk about how the scars don't look neat/straight like deliberate cuts for suicide/self-mutilation. Then talk of how prevalent this "microchip" delusion is in this era of government surveillance. Really, all they have to do is make the genius spout some statistics. That would have been a believable profiling.

• HJ to TL Kang: "But why are you bringing this case up?" about the reaper

  Hide contents

Erm... Because it looks just like the Reaper's MO?

I know what HJ really meant. He meant that the Reaper has not killed for such a long time..... Thus, this new case seems more like a copycat.

They should've put that "copycat" line into the conversation. Then, HJ won't sound dumb... and the audience will be able to follow their dialogue.

 

2) Editing/Directing flaws

• Unclear timeline & voiceovers

  Hide contents

I saw 2 instances of it. Both in HJ-Unsub confrontation scene.

First, LH's voiceover. "When you face Cho Seok-hwan, you have to consider..." line. It is supposed to be LH's voice in HJ's head. But we cannot tell that by the voice quality. IMO, they should've shown a short flashback of the LH-HJ conversation scene on the bus. That way, we can connect where that voice comes from.

Next one is not as bad. NNH's voiceover. "That's right. It's him. He is Kang Won-hyung..." line. It suddenly popped into the scene, so I at first thought she was speaking to HJ through the earpiece. But then, they showed a flashback of her saying it, and I finally figured out that it's from the earlier scene. So this one is not as confusing..... but they really should change the "flashback" or "thought" voice-quality to avoid confusion altogether.

• The "delusion" figure's placement in the scenes.
  He kept hovering too close to the unsub. Even before the reveal, it was already clear that he was in the unsub's head. They should've placed him more naturally in the scenes.
• Dealing with emotions during the "train" case

  Hide contents

SW's worry for HJ... I totally buy it. TL Kang's reaction to the gunshot..... I also buy it.

But LH's worry for HJ..... not that much.

The worst part is... when HJ was taking off the vest. I expected TL Kang to tell him to stop through the earpiece (just as Gideon muttered about it when Reid did the same). Or SW to react to it somehow. We didn't get any of that. Yes, it's a very minor issue, but I was slightly disappointed.

 

3) Subtitles

As I've said, I watched this episode with a KR colleague. Who filled in the stuff that the subs missed out. And it's really sad that the subtitles are sub-standard... and the flaws make quite a lot of difference in some scenes.

• Unsub's conversation with YMY when she offered to speak to the negotiator

  Hide contents

Problematic subtitles:

Unsub: Do you think I'd let you deliver my message to them?
YMY: Tell me what you want. I'll tell them.
"Delusion" figure said something.
Another passenger: He's right. Calm down. (Problem is the passenger isn't supposed to see the "delusion" figure)

Correct subtitle should be...

Unsub: Do you think I'd let you communicate messages to them? (He meant she will send secret messages.)
YMY: Tell me exactly what you want me to say. I'll tell them.
Delusion figure said something.
Another passenger: She's right. Calm down. (He meant YMY.)

• SW's instruction to HJ

  Hide contents

Problematic subtitle:

SW: Don't make eye-contact with Agent YMY. Don't forget that you're an expert in removing microchips.

Correct subtitle should be...

SW: Don't make eye-contact with Agent YMY. Don't forget that you're just an expert in removing microchips. (She meant he's not supposed to be an agent.)

There are a lot more. But I'm tired.

So I guess, part of it is subtitles issue. Others are script issues. Whether they are small issues or not, all of those affected the quality of an otherwise well-done execution. I find it a travesty that an excellent plot is marred by such amateurish mistakes!

• The "genius" characterization.

First, let me make myself clear. I don't care that HJ was the key to resolution. I actually like that. I will talk about that later. But can they please let the genius be a genius once in a while? He spent the whole freaking episode going "whoa" at everything HJ can do.

They have different roles to play. HJ is a quick problem solver and resourceful agent. The genius is the knowledge bank and analyst. The genius should be feeding the info and analysis to HJ so that HJ can utilize them effectively.

They did that a bit in this case. But mostly, HJ is so utterly 'perfect' in his mental abilities that I do not understand the point of having another genius in the cast at all! The poor 'genius' guy needs a proper role. Something other than just standing around in his dorky suits and oohing and ahing over HJ.

• HJ characterization.

On 8/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, zi4r said:

When I first saw HJ step on the train, I thought he seemed too assured... and I felt it affected the believability of him as "just a tech".

But with the direction the case went --- the other criminal figuring out he's probably a police officer, rather than a tech, and HJ using that twist to his advantage --- all in all, I am satisfied with HJ taking the role as the central character in this case.

I somewhat disagree. I am in agreement with your first criticism: HJ is too self-assured to be a tech. I do not agree with you giving it a pass. Even if the resolution of the case involves the criminal #2 figuring out that HJ is not a tech, HJ should be pretending to be a tech a lot better!

And just as in Week 1, this problem has nothing whatsoever to do with JG's acting. The problem is the script and wardrobe.

First, just look the way he swaggered towards the train. His cockiness when talking to the team was fine. That was on point. But he should not look cocky when walking towards the train because he is supposed to be "just a tech" by then. Any non-agent should be shaking in his boots when walking towards a deadly situation. But he looked so sure of himself throughout his walk towards the train and his interaction with the criminal. We have seen JG act vulnerable & unsure before in Episode 1 so it's not that he can't do it. It's either he's interpreting the script wrong --if so, the director should've corrected him so it's more the director's fault. Or most probably, the script itself overlooked the whole characterization of a 'tech'!

And those glasses that the fans love so much? It messed up the whole 'tech' role. The man has lethal looking eyes! Framing them with glasses of such style made him look even more deadly. If those glasses are meant to make him look like a geek or something, they should have picked a different style. (more JG related stuff inside spoiler)

Spoiler

I am getting irritated by how the drama seems to focus on JG's visual appeal than his acting ability. I understand that he is good-looking. I am a straight man but even I can appreciate his beauty. And by "beauty", I am not saying he looks effeminate. I said "beauty" because "handsome" doesn't seem to cut it to describe how he looks. And I get that he has a massive fan base.

But I feel the show is prioritizing the use of him for action scenes and aesthetics, rather than making his character more believable. That might make fans happy. But non-fans would find the characterization flawed and unbelievable and they might blame the poor actor for it!

IMO they're doing a good actor a huge disservice by treating him as eye candy. I am actually very offended by this on his behalf. A man should not be penalized for being good-looking or having a fan base. This is just like casting women with big breasts in the US just to draw men's eyeballs. It's demeaning. And I feel that's exactly what the poor guy is going through.

 

 

I might have sounded harsh above. But in fact, I actually enjoyed this part of Episode 3 a lot.

So what's good about it? Almost everything really. Just to list out a few points...

• The fast pace and case length

On 8/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, zi4r said:

My opinion has changed --- the length of the "train" case is just right. Because of some changes in storyline (which I'll talk about below), the case-length need not even be as long as the US-version 40-min length. If they had stretched it out to a full 1-hr episode in KR version, it would have been draggy. IMO, they made the right choice of keeping the "train" case short.

I agree. Given the scope of the case and its resolution, the case runtime was just right. Any longer, the tension would have been negatively affected and it wouldn't be as thrilling to watch. I have a few problems with the logic behind some of the jump to conclusions, already noted in my/your criticisms. But they didn't do that much damage to my overall enjoyment.

• The resolution to the case & HJ's role (multiple quotes inside spoiler)

Spoiler

On 8/3/2017 at 11:27 AM, stroppyse said:

HJ got to show that he thinks and takes risks, though it's yet to be seen whether he's actually doing appropriate risk assessment before he goes for it. Given his background, it makes sense that he may trust his own instincts over the edicts of his superior officers. I hope that part of his character's development arc is that he comes to trust his teammates and TL Kang enough to stand down when they tell him to do so. We know that he can think for himself, what needs to happen is for him to work better within the team rather than being the hero all by his own.

On 8/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, zi4r said:

I won't go into detail. But the addition of the other criminal-on-the-run character was a very good decision.

(US version comparison of episode plot inside spoiler tag)

  Hide contents

To be frank, as much as I like the US-version episode (and that's almost solely because of Reid being the central character), I always felt that I was cheated out of a real resolution of the case (aka the profiling didn't resolve anything, another man with a gun did).

In KR version, HJ's quick thinking & on-the-spot profiling are what ultimately resolved the whole situation. And the fight-scene? It didn't feel like an action-for-action-sake scene like last-week's super-long car-chase. Here, HJ's physical capability & mental acuity are both essential in everyone getting out of there alive. And that was all made possible by the addition of the other criminal, which gave HJ leverage to turn the situation to his advantage.

The resolution of this case is the highlight of the whole episode. It is a far step above its US counterpart's resolution.

I know I said HJ was too 'perfect' in his capabilities in thise drama, for now. But that is not too much of a criticism within this case. The case is custom made for him after all. It requires his physical ability, resourcefulness, sleight of hands and ability to stay calm under pressure. It even allows him to override his team members as a newbie because the situation calls more for a man with tactical skills and out-of-the-box thinking than normal profiling. I am sure that in another case, his impulsive actions would hurt him. But here, it worked very well.

HJ made use of the real information available to him about criminal #2 and mix it up with believable lies in order to fool the criminal #1. Rather than fighting against the criminal #1's delutions, he makes use of them to create a level of trust between the criminal and himself. That was beautiful profiling and hostage negotiation. I can't be happier about it.

• The emotions and the team dynamic

I thoroughly enjoyed the reactions of teamleader, SW and even the genius towards HJ's cocky and foolhardy approach to the case. It shows off all their personalities very well.

• The intention behind choosing this case for EP03

On 8/3/2017 at 11:52 AM, 40somethingahjumma said:

The case isn't the end but the means to an end... to integrate HJ into the overall dynamics of a pre-existing team. That's why SW was a bit grumpy with him because the team is used to doing things in a certain way but with a new member, a team has to readjust its overall dynamic to draw on the new member's skill. Also HJ needs to learn how the team does things too... for instance, how TL Kang thinks, why he does what he does. 

I totally agree. This case is meant to be HJ's initiation into the team. Nothing much more than that. And it did that job spectacularly.

 

My personal rating for this case: A-. Yes, that's even with all the criticisms I talked about.

The case did its job of what it is meant to do in the whole drama. Initiate HJ into the team in the most thrilling fashion possible. For that, I am more than satisfied with this case.

 

I will talk about the Reaper in the next post.

P.S. @zi4r Forget about the subtitles. I thought you had notes! That's why I asked. There is no need to write out everything. Thanks anyway.

[Uniform Victory]

@40somethingahjumma I am a fan of your writing. I love that you stick to the drama rather than insisting on what you want. I always get a new perspective about the drama from your writing and understanding deeper what the drama wants to convey rather than the other way around. Most especially it's not everyone's drama especially in kdramaland. Even to me, I have watched the original series to season 12 but I need to watch the kversion at least twice as our main characters here are different from it's counterpart. And, I get a fresh eyes in every watch as I don't need to read the subtitle in the second viewing.  So I can more focused on the actual drama. Your analyses adds to the substance of my understanding without departing from the drama production's perspective.

"Objective" is the right term for it right? Objective review it is. Sorry English is not my first language.

 

[RPM]

I'm trying hard to continue this drama  ,,script is not up to remarkable. Even Gap dong  much better than this I don't want to say this but now I have to admit it. Still watching it for Lee joon gi❤

[joonloca3 JG]

 @dforte

I totally agree with you... especially about TL and HJ.

However I am happy to see your score is A-, my score is lower, so I wanna get your point ,about the advantage of this drama and enjoy it.

----

Bright side to me, there is good story line of TL in EP04,I hope the wife accident will turn a motivation, a motivation to change NCI team.

[dforte]

The Reaper case.

I have a lot to say about this. The post is going to be quite a mess. I won't be writing this my usual way of categorizing the good and the bad. I'll be breaking down my points into topics. And I'll quote other people's criticisms about it and defend them or agree with them accordingly.

Most of the quotes are inside spoiler tags. Because the post ended up much too long!

 

Witness Protection Program

This is based on my knowledge of how things work in the US. But I think it is probably similar in korea as well. At least, the logic and methodology behind the program shouldn't be so different.

• Why no contact with people from your past?

It's mostly answered in this quote inside spoiler tag. I have a bit more to add but I'll do that below while answering other questions.

Spoiler

20 hours ago, zi4r said:

This is entirely normal. (Not sure about Korea but) In every country I've lived in, witness protection programs don't usually allow the people under protection to have ANY connection/contact with their "previous life". They almost always have to cut ties even with close family.

It would have been nice if the sending-off-to-witness-protection part happens AFTER the hacking. If so, the situation would be a lot more fitting. TL Kang's info/security is compromised. Even NCI is compromised too. Then, ensuring no contact/connection between TL Kang & his family will be the logical way to keep the family safe. That's why I have a problem with the Reaper case happening too fast. 1-episode length is not enough for them to show the pressure TL Kang feels. If they stretch it out, we will realize that the Reaper's threat is relentless and TL Kang has no choice but to cut himself off family, hence witness protection program.

But once the witness protection program has come into play, the "having no contact with anyone from previous life" is kinda the default position. So the fact that TL Kang doesn't know his wife's number isn't a logical problem in the script.

 

 

• Why only one agent?

Spoiler

17 hours ago, skinnerbox said:

And if your family is in danger you don't send them away with one agent and leave it at that

 

Mainly because of the nature of the program and limited resources.

Everything happened in the drama in 1 episode. But in reality, people who go into witness protection usually stay that way for years or even decades. That means there really is not enough manpower to assign too many agents or police personnel. Here, there is one agent dedicatedly working to protect TL's wife and kid. That's only because this is considered a 'hot' case. That threat level will 'cool' down in a few weeks or months. Then, they might not even have a person solely working on their case anymore.

 

• But shouldn't there be more security? How does it even work if there's no one working to protect them?

It works because of the secrecy. You cut off all ties with your past. You don't have electronic trails connected to your old identity or life. That means it's next to impossible for anyone to track you down.

That's also the reason why even the agent protecting you won't make too much contact with you, much less stay near you. Because every contact is risky. By living a 'normal' life and away from contact with anyone related to the case or your previous life, you stay safe.

 

• Why would TL and his family --or anyone for that matter-- choose this route over other ways of keeping themselves or their families safe.

Spoiler

17 hours ago, skinnerbox said:

And if your family is in danger you don't send them away with one agent and leave it at that, nor leave your own house without protection, that could have saved his wife.

 

In most cases, the first reason for choosing to go into witness protection is that you are not the 'main target' and the 'main target' is a prominent individual who cannot easily 'disappear'. In this case, TL is the main target. Witness protection is the most logical way of protecting his family because moving them away from himself alone can be considered a huge step in minimizing the threat. And by cutting off ties with TL and NCI, none of those individuals can be used to track TL's family down.

You might say that it would have been safer for them to stay home and have constant high security. But in this case, the Reaper has been killing for a decade without getting caught. That means the case might drag on for years. That's the second reason for choosing the program: needing protection for a long length of time. Living in constant high security is almost like being imprisoned. It causes a lot more stress than living a 'normal' life elsewhere. Especially in this case, there is a young kid involved. Young kids require some normalcy in life. And they would not understand enough to follow the strict rules of high onsite security. Therefore, witness protection makes a lot more sense in this case.

 

• What are the drawbacks of the program?

There are many. First, the mechanism of the program hinges on the 'point of contact' between the people under protection and the law enforcement. That's the agent in this case. If the baddie can track down the agent, that's the end of the whole thing. That's why you always choose someone totally unconnected to the case as 'point of contact'. They did that in this case. But the Reaper tracked the agent down by other means. 

I have a lot of questions here. >>> How exactly did the Reaper find out? Is that through hacking? Is witness protection also handled by NCI in korea? Does NNH's system have access to files concerning witness protection? Or did the Reaper hack something else? I am not sure I missed anything. That's why I need detailed discussions here before I write anything. Now, I don't have a cheat-sheet! XD

Back to my point. The next big flaw of the program is the isolation/secrecy itself. People in witness protection often don't know where to turn to once the 'point of contact' is gone. The right way to react when that happens is to stay put and live a 'normal' life and wait for another 'point of contact' to physically come find you. But of course, in reality, that's easier said than done.

And the Reaper perfectly made use of all these flaws.

 

TL's choices

20 hours ago, zi4r said:

It would have been nice if the sending-off-to-witness-protection part happens AFTER the hacking. If so, the situation would be a lot more fitting. TL Kang's info/security is compromised. Even NCI is compromised too. Then, ensuring no contact/connection between TL Kang & his family will be the logical way to keep the family safe. That's why I have a problem with the Reaper case happening too fast. 1-episode length is not enough for them to show the pressure TL Kang feels. If they stretch it out, we will realize that the Reaper's threat is relentless and TL Kang has no choice but to cut himself off family, hence witness protection program.

I agree, it is problematic that the Reaper's stalking of TL is shortened too much. The shopping center incident is scary for a father for sure. But it really would have been nice to show the relentlessness of the Reaper, as you said.

But I think TL choosing to consider witness protection straightaway fits his nature. He is a lawman himself. A very capable one. This kind of individuals trust the 'system'. They believe that the law-enforcement methods work. So when he feels he cannot trust himself to protect his own family, it makes quite a lot of sense for him to turn to another method offered by the 'system'.

I can think of another way to make everything more believable even with short runtime. They could've included just one thing. If the previous police guy --the dying man-- actually described to TL how the Reaper terrorized his family. Just a few lines vividly describing the trauma on his family. That will make it more believable for TL to consider witness protection after one short scare at the shopping center.

 

Wife's choices

17 hours ago, skinnerbox said:

TL Kang didn't have a system worked with his wife so she didn't believe a random dude so she got tricked, plus she didn't try to call Sun-woo? His boss? Someone reliable?

I saw many other comments online too about how stupid she is. I find that really sad.

• Why did she not call other members of NCI?

Because she is not supposed to. That would have been the first thing drilled into her. Especially when both the agent and the husband are dead. Because that probably means NCI is compromised. She was actually correct in not contacting NCI. Of course, it's not the right move in this case. But come on, there is no way for her to know that!

• Why did she trust the guy on the phone?

Probably because he was using the agent's phone. She shouldn't have trusted him, for sure. As I've said, the correct thing to do is to stay put and wait for another 'point of contact' to show up at your place. But this is a grieving and scared woman. Try putting yourself in her shoes. Not many can make right decisions in such situations.

You might not like it. But IMO the wife's choices and decisions are very human and believable. And it makes the Reaper all the more terrifying!

 

Kid's reaction

• At the shopping center

Spoiler

On 8/3/2017 at 3:19 PM, zi4r said:

And why would TL Kang's kid be dumb enough to think a man with a mask is his dad's friend?

 

I have no problem believing that a kid might follow anyone that manages to capture their interest. I also can believe a man can trick the kid into believing that the mask is for some other 'fun' reason.

But I do have a problem with the fact that there is a masked man wandering around a shopping center pulling a kid along. Is that normal in korea? People won't be alarmed? I would have called the police or even interfere on my own if I saw that!

• Lack of reaction to threats of death to his mother and himself

Spoiler

22 hours ago, antoniaclamens said:

HB reaction. i'm ok with him being a little boy that's not afraid of strangers... but when his mother was crying like that and the reaper said he was going to kill his mother and him,  he must have been afraid... and when he saw his father covered with blood, he must have been afraid. he should be crying too.

 

That's because he didn't hear the threats. The Reaper had his hands pressed on the kid's ears. I know you might think it ineffective. But it actually is very effective when it is done right and especially to a small kid.

Once the kid has talked to his father, he knows that the man is "bad". And that they are in some danger. But I doubt he would know it's life-threatening. Even if he does, he might not react the way adults do. Kids don't understand concepts of life and death like we do. That's why you sometimes see kids happily playing among corpses in war zones. For them, the finality of death has to be explained to them. They usually don't get it at all unless a family member has died in front of them.

• Lack of reaction to his father's blood

This is a bit 'off' for me too. But we don't fully know what the 'tick tock' routine involves.

TL has already told the kid about how "bad guys" might come to the house and how they'd have to "investigate the case" together. Then he probably would have told the kid about how daddy will have to fight the "bad guys" and the kid will have to "help" by hiding. At least, that's what I would have done as a father. That might explain some of the kid's calmness.

Or maybe it's just shock. But I do find the kid's calmness disconcerting.

 

The set-up and resolution to the case. Let me list out step by step. [+] for good and [-] for bad.

[-] It's happening too early in the drama. We barely know the wife and the kid. Not that we're not emotionally invested. After all, there's a kid in danger. But I would have liked to know them better before we have to see them in danger.

[-] As said before, the Reaper's terrorizing and mind-games are happening too fast and then was over too quickly. So it's harder for us to imagine TL's fears and understand his choices.

[-] The Reaper's moves are too perfect. His capabilities are hard to believe. Especially all the hacking everywhere. But I think, that's also because the whole thing is happening in one episode! There is no time to explain how the Reaper did half the things he did.

[+] The Reaper's use of profiling is really amazing. And that makes him so terrifying because he is beating the team at their own game! Especially when he used it to play mind-games with TL and to get info out of the agent. I loved the brilliance of those scenes.

[+/-] The Reaper's portrayal.

On 8/3/2017 at 11:29 PM, zi4r said:

1) The Reaper's "evil" acting is a bit too obvious & over-the-top. I feel like I am watching Batman's Joker half the time. I'd have liked a bit more subtlety. That would have made him even more terrifying.

I am fine with the theatrical acting. I understand what you mean about subtlety. But I don't think the subtlety would have worked here, given that the Reaper is given less than 2 episodes to terrorize the audience. The craziness in his acting is effective in making an impression on the audience.

On 8/4/2017 at 0:39 AM, Miky88 said:

I knew it,even if they blurred the Reaper's voice i recognized it right away by his accent and way of speaking

That's very interesting. I can't comment on that because I don't know korean. But if that is true, then yes. They should've chosen another actor with a more neutral accent. Especially since most of the acting is done through voice only.

Spoiler

21 hours ago, lovelyrainy said:

I'm familiar with Kim Won Hae (the Reaper) so even though I didn't watch the original, I already predicted who he could be. He's a good actor and I knew there's no way they casted him just to be the almost died victim. So yeah, it kinda spoiled the fun for me.

Hmm... This is a very interesting commentary on a form of type-casting. In the US though, sometimes they do kill off famous/great actors or give them small or cameo roles in certain productions. You mean it doesn't happen in korea?

[+] The initial investigation is portrayed well in most aspects. Such as the elimination of other suspects, the way they figured out who the Reaper is, etc. I have no problem with any of that. Given how short the runtime they had, it's a phenomenal job.

[-] The only flaw in the initial investigation: the hacking incident. NNH is made to look stupid. I won't elaborate. Here's the quote I fully agree.

Spoiler

20 hours ago, zi4r said:

It's not just dialogue problem. The script-dialogue-directing-editing all keep making NCI team members oscillate between seeming extremely smart & extremely dumb. Anyone (even the lowest level tech) who works IT in a large firm (not even govt facility, any firm) would know this. USBs are easily programmable. Therefore, you NEVER stick an unknown USB (even if you feel it's from a friendly source) into your main system, especially not into a system that is connected to network AND database. What you do is explore it in a confined "junk" machine to figure out what's in there, and incrementally assess & transfer out the data.

BUT! Please take note. This is a persisting problem in the US version too. I feel as if the writers of TV series/dramas just hope & pray that the audience won't be smart enough to figure out such issues. Given the length of run-time in which each case has to be set up and resolved...... I guess, we cannot expect the quality of a movie-length crime thriller.

Of course, as you said, the dialogue made NNH seem even stupider. But well, maybe she was in a panic and wasn't thinking straight. She's no field agent who can withstand sudden pressure. I can forgive her for this. (But that's because I'm trying to be really kind. Her character description says she's a white hacker. Hmm... A hacker who cannot deal with sudden pressure & who easily panics? That's just plain dumb writing.)

[+/-] Response from the team. I see many criticisms about it on the thread and elsewhere. I agree only with some of the criticisms.

Spoiler

17 hours ago, leesopark16 said:

why didn't they call for the local police ? They could have got there before them, no ?

15 hours ago, Uniform Victory said:

NCI are police themselves & the most elite unit to speak of. Also, there are already 5 of them on the way to TLKang's house; 4 in the moving bus and 1 in a separate car. Besides, I doubt that the local police would have faster response time than the NCI team. Of course, they are dealing with high profile killer here so getting more parties involved could make this incident into a circus and that's the very least they want to happen.

 

I don't have enough information on how far away they are from the scene or what the response time is in Korea. So I wouldn't know whether the local police can get there faster.

But from tactical standpoint, I have to agree with @leesopark16 here. Whether it would have been chaotic or not, in this kind of situation where the victims are still alive, the priority would be to get help there as soon as possible. It would have made sense for NCI to stay in-charge on remote command but getting a ground team there to at least make an assessment seems the most logical move. The police might not get there faster but if there is a slight possibility at all that they will, it would have made sense to at least start mobilizing the local police. At least an officer or two, given that the Reaper is just one person. And of course they should have contacted emergency services to be on standby.

Maybe they did all that and it's just not shown. I would've preferred it if they showed it. SW seems like the kind of person who would do it. And if they had shown it on screen, the team would not seem too 'useless' to the audience. I understand that the show wanted to highlight the 'helplessness' of the team. But 'helplessness' doesn't equate not doing enough. And the way it is portrayed might have made the audience puzzled by how 'free' the team seemed to be throughout the bus ride.

Spoiler

17 hours ago, skinnerbox said:

I'm really mad, these episodes were nothing like the premiere, the profiling flew out of the window, the team did nothing and three people got murdered while they watched from their screen.
...
In all the team sucks! I want more of the first two episodes and more action, less horrible phone calls. 

 

It is absolutely not true that there is not enough profiling. TL is doing all the profiling to play the Reaper's 'game'. Those phone calls you don't want are the key profiling that was being done in the episode. I know it might seem ineffective. But that's the point! You're supposed to understand the helplessness TL feels.

The same for the team as well. I personally felt their helplessness and the feeling of doom approaching. I actually liked all the "standing around" scenes. The most brilliant minds in korea being totally ineffectual in saving the life of one of their own. That's the key point of the episode.

You will probably get "more action, less horrible phone calls" in some episodes. Just not this one. But I don't think that makes this episode any less good.

 

The intention behind choosing this case for Episode 3 and 4

Just like the 'train' case, I feel that there is a reason why we're seeing the Reaper episode so early. This might be the tragedy to fast forward the team's bonding. Especially with the Reaper's escape, now they all have a common personal enemy. Such an incident will bring all of them closer.

But I still am sad that it came and went too fast. With all the blood and gore, I understand it cannot drag on too long. But I'd rather they show TL's struggles and the Reaper's mind-games little by little across multiple episodes and have this resolution in Episode 6 or later.

That would've made this a true epic. And I feel that TL & his wife deserved it.

 

 

My personal rating for this case is a B.

Yes, the lowest grade I've given in 4 episodes. I really wanted to give this a higher grade. Because I could feel TL's tragedy so vividly. And the wife was portrayed by such a great actress! But even though I am so emotionally attached to this case, its flaws cannot be overlooked.

TL & his family deserved a better story-telling for all the pain they went through. IMO the show made an error by giving this tragedy and a terrifying killer so little runtime.

-------

 

About next week episode. I am so excited! It will be a nice change of pace from this week's gore and gut-wrenching sadness. Looking forward to it.

 

And this is to @pixelsticks! I was going to put this in my third post but I've decided not to write it.

Just wanted to say, I am thoroughly enjoying your wonderfully quirky notes. Your way of 'stream of consciousness' analysis is something I really admire but could never emulate. So thank you very much for that. The only reason why I haven't been quoting your posts for response is that I find our styles much too different for me to make a proper response to yours. Whatever I write wouldn't have done justice to the snark and wit you portray in your writings. So please know that I look forward to these after every episode.