[Mainland Chinese Drama 2017] The King’s Woman 泰时丽人明月心

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

21 minutes ago, meifang89 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry - watching this BTS and how they rehearsed - DD cannot emote, cannot cry and cannot draw you into the character.  When she practiced with ZBB, her motions were not fluid but very mechanical and almost as if I were reading instructions on how to assemble furniture.  If anyone here has read Anne of Green Gables, in one of the books to the series, Anne of Windy Poplars, Anne explains to one of her students how one should plead with majesty when one is a queen (Queen Mary of Scotland was the role in the novel), and she demonstrates how to drop to one's knees.   DD looks like she is acting and not being and that is where I struggle with her as an actress.  The lack of emoting more than 1 emotion is fine for cute roles or dumb roles but Lier is not a dumb role - it is a serious role and despite the holes in the writing, she could have proven her acting capabilities in this drama but she did not.  Also, I cannot get over how self-conscious she seems to be with every hand gesture - her gestures are choppy not smooth - she does not glide, she steps then pauses and then steps again.

[renaoh]

And so it has finally ended, now I can breath again.  Loved all the comments here and for myself I have only this to say.

1.  Except for ZBB's acting, the rest of the actors/actresses acting sucks.

 

2.  I think Lier has never loved anyone else except JK.  Basically she just feels good and ego that JZ loves her and is willing to fall on his knees and lap up whatever crumbs of affection she throws to him.  Her first love and only love has always been JK.  When she made up her mind to go the palace, she willingly gave her virginity to JK because to her, it will be a slap to JZ when JZ finds out that she has given her virginity to JK.  This is to tell JZ that he will never ever be her FIRST.  We must remember that in those era, a girl's virginity is her most precious gift that she can gives to her husband.  Although JZ doesn't seem to mind and accepted Lier and Tian Ming when he found out that Lier is pregnant with LK's child, inversely the "not a virgin anymore" issue will always be a thorn in his side. 

 

3.  JK was supposed to have mastered his sifu's Huluo sword technique and can kill his opponents in half a blink of an eye without anyone knowing any better.  If that is so, how can he lose to JZ?  Wouldn't it be logical to think that JZ would have been sliced dead before JZ can blink his eyes if JK were to make his move?  JK is really good for nothing except for that one-night stand when he successfully impregnated Lier.  In this aspect, JZ failed miserably since he has more "years" to have sex with Lier and only managed to get her pregnant after 7? 8? years??  

 

4.  The finale for me was seeing JZ slowly pushing his sword into JK's body.  The look on JZ's face was climaxing ... the joy, the revenge, the pride of killing Lier's lover with his own hands ... it was JZ's punishment to JK for taking and having the heart of the woman he loves but cannot have.

 

 

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

3 minutes ago, renaoh said:

And so it has finally ended, now I can breath again.  Loved all the comments here and for myself I have only this to say.

1.  Except for ZBB's acting, the rest of the actors/actresses acting sucks.

 

2.  I think Lier has never loved anyone else except JK.  Basically she just feels good and ego that JZ loves her and is willing to fall on his knees and lap up whatever crumbs of affection she throws to him.  Her first love and only love has always been JK.  When she made up her mind to go the palace, she willingly gave her virginity to JK because to her, it will be a slap to JZ when JZ finds out that she has given her virginity to JK.  This is to tell JZ that he will never ever be her FIRST.  We must remember that in those era, a girl's virginity is her most precious gift that she can gives to her husband.  Although JZ doesn't seem to mind and accepted Lier and Tian Ming when he found out that Lier is pregnant with LK's child, inversely the "not a virgin anymore" issue will always be a thorn in his side. 

 

3.  JK was supposed to have mastered his sifu's Huluo sword technique and can kill his opponents in half a blink of an eye without anyone knowing any better.  If that is so, how can he lose to JZ?  Wouldn't it be logical to think that JZ would have been sliced dead before JZ can blink his eyes if JK were to make his move?  JK is really good for nothing except for that one-night stand when he successfully impregnated Lier.  In this aspect, JZ failed miserably since he has more "years" to have sex with Lier and only managed to get her pregnant after 7? 8? years??  

 

4.  The finale for me was seeing JZ slowly pushing his sword into JK's body.  The look on JZ's face was climaxing ... the joy, the revenge, the pride of killing Lier's lover with his own hands ... it was JZ's punishment to JK for taking and having the heart of the woman he loves but cannot have.

 

 

@renaoh I don't think that love is linear but your points are well taken and I have often seesawed back and forth about LIer and her love for JK and YZ.  Maybe it was the lack of chemistry between Lier and JK, but I often thought that their love was more brotherly/sisterly and she honestly did not have a lot of choices when it came to the men around her.  With respect to the virginity issue, I kind of shrugged my shoulders at that one because she did not seem too pleased when she learned that she was pregnant and her attitude toward TM blew hot and cold.

 

With YZ, everything was an issue because he fundamentally did not trust anyone and why would he?  He became king at the age of 13 and then somehow managed to survive to take the reins of the kingdom in his own hands.  He loved Lier as much as his suspicious nature would allow him to love anyone and as he stated several times, he did not choose to king of Qin but he is and therefore, he has to do what he needs to do even if others disagree with him.  He does not necessarily derive joy from killing others but that is what is expected of him and so that is the image he tries to maintain at all costs because fear = power in his book.

 

With YZ, everything began with his cape/cloak and it ends there too - when he descends the stairs after killing Lier, and then he falls to his knees and screams, we are back to the beginning when the narrator stated that the world would begin to hear his tiger's roar.  And of course for effect, a raven flies over him.  Very appropriate.

 

The writers and DD contributed to a lack of complexity within Lier but this role and this character had the potential to be more than just a warrior or a beautiful concubine - Lier, I think, was supposed to represent nobility and lack of greed - her needs, as stated, are supposed to be simple and she wants to protect everyone whom she loves.  YZ had to accept that love is limitless and that Lier could love others without impinging on her love for him - not sure that the drama ever reached this understanding or projection because Lier was not very good at communicating any of this.  @shimshimae said that love without trust could not survive and ultimately that is what happened here.  

 

As for Lier and JK, their love is more based on the "one that got away" and familiarity.  It feels too forced and part of it is probably due to the fact that the actors shared no chemistry and it was painful to watch.

[thunderman1]

19 hours ago, tintin92 said:

thanks everyone for their wonderful recaps and insights of this drama! it was a great pleasure being here to discuss this drama  Sadly AGAIN they ruined a potentially good drama with crappy writing and that HUGE Disappointment ending 

well i'm getting used to this thing actually  first Princess Agents and Now this  just one tip, never expect a proper ending for historical chinese dramas just relax and enjoy the show 

It isn't the year for C-dramas unfortunately. :/  2014-2015 were the good old years with Sound of Desert, Princess Wei young was alright. 

[thunderman1]

3 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@renaoh I don't think that love is linear but your points are well taken and I have often seesawed back and forth about LIer and her love for JK and YZ.  Maybe it was the lack of chemistry between Lier and JK, but I often thought that their love was more brotherly/sisterly and she honestly did not have a lot of choices when it came to the men around her.  With respect to the virginity issue, I kind of shrugged my shoulders at that one because she did not seem too pleased when she learned that she was pregnant and her attitude toward TM blew hot and cold.

 

With YZ, everything was an issue because he fundamentally did not trust anyone and why would he?  He became king at the age of 13 and then somehow managed to survive to take the reins of the kingdom in his own hands.  He loved Lier as much as his suspicious nature would allow him to love anyone and as he stated several times, he did not choose to king of Qin but he is and therefore, he has to do what he needs to do even if others disagree with him.  He does not necessarily derive joy from killing others but that is what is expected of him and so that is the image he tries to maintain at all costs because fear = power in his book.

 

With YZ, everything began with his cape/cloak and it ends there too - when he descends the stairs after killing Lier, and then he falls to his knees and screams, we are back to the beginning when the narrator stated that the world would begin to hear his tiger's roar.  And of course for effect, a raven flies over him.  Very appropriate.

 

The writers and DD contributed to a lack of complexity within Lier but this role and this character had the potential to be more than just a warrior or a beautiful concubine - Lier, I think, was supposed to represent nobility and lack of greed - her needs, as stated, are supposed to be simple and she wants to protect everyone whom she loves.  YZ had to accept that love is limitless and that Lier could love others without impinging on her love for him - not sure that the drama ever reached this understanding or projection because Lier was not very good at communicating any of this.  @shimshimae said that love without trust could not survive and ultimately that is what happened here.  

 

As for Lier and JK, their love is more based on the "one that got away" and familiarity.  It feels too forced and part of it is probably due to the fact that the actors shared no chemistry and it was painful to watch.

Interesting.. you are the first to connect back to the beginning and of course, this King is as vicious as a tiger's roar.

[shimshimae]

still haven't watched the ending, so was a bit taken back with LZ's death.

 

someone mentioned about the legend (was it @january1234?) that the woman the emperor loved committed suicide from jumping off the great wall and it crumbled. that's so much better -  if ZBB played JK, JK-Li chemistry would have been believable and Li wouldn't have had hots for the king whoever he is after being with ZBB/JK LOL and then the premise that even if you are the emperor of the world, you cannot force someone to love you would have made sense (talking about the legend and not the drama)

 

but ZBB totally rocked as the king - like he's born to be one. kkkkk

[briaes]

@raziela 

Hahaha. Hide in spoilers cos dont wanna be a party pooper to those who pretend it ends at ep 37. And also cos it's my broken alarm clock rant. Lol 

I think I can find consolation in your thoughts that "we should know".  I never doubted YZ as I feel he's consistent throughout. It's only Li that's causing all the confusion. I thought a love that started out so beautifully should end just as meaningfully. Sadly, the last fews eps is so savagely butchered - how YZ and Li's love is in an infinity loop of trust and betrayal again, how there's no connection between JK and Li's love and what and whom is she really protecting. Initially, I thought she would die to protect her one true love, but as the series progresses i thought hmmm maybe she would protect their love. But naddah... now I'm more inclined to feel that she's protecting her chivalry and noble ideals. And at the same time trying to teach YZ a lesson or 2 on how to truly love and how it feels to kill your most beloved. I'm certain about YZ's love as he's prepared to die together with her.

 

This series is actually beautiful on its own dissected parts. Its just not beautifully and logically put together.

 

And thank you so much for sharing about the novel. 

 

@rosamundekingsley99_stv

Yes. Agree with you. Li may love YZ but learned nothing about him. And ironically, what she didn't learn, she wanted to teach YZ to learn. What a waste of 10 years together.  

 

And you're spot on too about Li who's supposed to represent a noble and lofty warrior. She is. And died as one. 

 

Btw, does anyone here know what are the general sentiments of the mainland chinese viewers on TKW? 

 

 

[xohelen]

15 hours ago, briaes said:

@raziela 

how YZ and Li's love is in an infinity loop of trust and betrayal again, how there's no connection between JK and Li's love and what and whom is she really protecting. Initially, I thought she would die to protect her one true love, but as the series progresses i thought hmmm maybe she would protect their love.

 

I haven't watched the last 2 episodes yet, but seen enough clips here and there and my prediction from earlier on the series that it's going to be a sad ending of Li's death in the arms of the king which I was inclined right on. 

 

Your point is interesting. I however, think that she died following JK not for the love of JK but just to follow him because she does not want to live a life being feeling like she's in a caged in Qin. Also, she doesn't want TM to grow up in the political palace fighting world. Therefore, I felt as if she turn the dagger on herself to follow her exlover JK not to teach YZ a lesson to trust but it's everything together. That YZ never had her full heart, she stayed with YZ due to pity and also for the safety of saving her exlover once again. Again, everything she choose to do is to protect JK. There's a lot of speculations we will truly not know the real intent to this triangle love between JK, Li, and YZ. All we know is a one sided love of YZ towards Li. Li may have fallen for him because she been married to him for 10 yrs. Then found out he was the childhood boy she saved. Now she pity him rather than feeling like it's LOVE. She is also too devoted towards JK not because of true love but because he's the father of TM. So at the end I think she really didn't love either man faithfully and truthfully. 

 

This was a good written drama, but disappointing sad ending. Should have kept a good ending and forget about following darn novels. What's the point of the title "The King's woman" when the king's woman is dead by her own act to died because she wants him to learn a lesson of "trust".... It should just be title "The king of Qin" ... 

[tudorrose]

23 hours ago, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

 

 

@tudorrose Episode 37 was the peak for me; still a beautiful drama because of the costumes, but @dramalover1 is so right - DD cannot emote more than 1 emotion at a time and she still seems too awkward and self-conscious even in the BTS  scenes.  Again, the costumes owned her - she did not OWN the costumes.  

 

A leader is always alone - both emotionally and metaphorically.  Symbolically LZ's and Lier's deaths made sense - the execution was off and the special effects were totally off.  And I still cannot get over that spotlight on them - again, I expect some Cabaret dance to begin.

 

 

I haven't seen ep 38 yet because i jumped from 24 to 41 but will surely watch it next week. I think i would also consider it as the ending if that's what happened. 

 

On DD's acting, she can act but, yes, she's not that good. She can't bring out the emotions on her face yet. Same with the way she carried her costumes, she was good in it but just like that. 

 

 

On 05/10/2017 at 3:30 AM, january1234 said:

@briaes-agree-you nailed the summary-and your earlier one about what's important to whom.And the love relationship(?!!!)

@raziela-yes, you were right-we should "know" about their love . I too  became confused about their love  (but as you said at least he was consistent.)-I thought more should've been resolved between them  at 37 when he apologized (? still don't know why) for Yan Dan.I  also  don't know  what her her reaction to the Handan massacre was (someone said she seemed stunned). I'd have expected a lot more reaction from her as she has been written  as woman with a high regard for other people's life and a woman of noble principles.What you have said about the book is interesting-and I agree that her interactions with JK in the series have been so ambiguous that I was guessing to the end who she'd die for.But as @tudorrose-said, the actual ending seems to have been a sad and beautiful tearjerker.(Shame about the confusion in between) Perhaps, I should've ended at 37.Frankly, still confused...

 

 

 

I will really watch that very famous ep 37 one of these days. It's not only you but others say the same thing. I am at ep 43 and will continue until the last but will go back and continue to watch where i stopped at 24 so i will end at 38, that way i will have a happy ending. It's just a trick but it will still not hide the reality that their love affair ended sadly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

By the way, so many interesting posts that i want to answer but can't due to work. I haven't check the previous pages too but i'm sure more very good reactions were posted there. I don't know when will i be able to read them but i'm grateful for the members who post them. Their usernames are in my mind and i hope to meet them, and all of you, again in another drama's. Will be back here, will just finish these reports screaming on my table right now but will visit for a minute or two in between. 

[Latte_Anyday]

 

My fave part 0:43 when Bin2 grabs Dilraba off the floor with so much force (poor girl) and then he paused to ask Are You OK? Such a gentleman he is

I noticed in most BTS clips not only does Bin2 fully commit to the scene but he also ad-libs/improv to make it more intense? Which is more than I can say for Dilraba (Sorry to her fans...) who either worries too much on how she'd look on cam or is not willing to be vulnerable on screen. God I hope Dilraba doesn't read the critique on her acting here LoL

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

3 hours ago, xohelen said:

I haven't watched the last 2 episodes yet, but seen enough clips here and there and my prediction from earlier on the series that it's going to be a sad ending of Li's death in the arms of the king which I was inclined right on. 

 

Your point is interesting. I however, think that she died following JK not for the love of JK but just to follow him because she does not want to live a life being feeling like she's in a caged in Qin. Also, she doesn't want TM to grow up in the political palace fighting world. Therefore, I felt as if she turn the dagger on herself to follow her exlover JK not to teach YZ a lesson to trust but it's everything together. That YZ never had her full heart, she stayed with YZ due to pity and also for the safety of saving her exlover once again. Again, everything she choose to do is to protect JK. There's a lot of speculations we will truly not know the real intent to this triangle love between JK, Li, and YZ. All we know is a one sided love of YZ towards Li. Li may have fallen for him because she been married to him for 10 yrs. Then found out he was the childhood boy she saved. Now she pity him rather than feeling like it's LOVE. She is also too devoted towards JK not because of true love but because he's the father of TM. So at the end I think she really didn't love either man faithfully and truthfully. 

 

This was a good written drama, but disappointing sad ending. Should have kept a good ending and forget about following darn novels. What's the point of the title "The King's woman" when the king's woman is dead by her own act to died because she wants him to learn a lesson of "trust".... It should just be title "The king of Qin" ... 

Maybe we are thinking too hard about who Lier loved - she can love both just in different ways.  Frankly, neither of her "relationships" with YZ and JK ever truly blossomed - both were hindered by external events as well as emotional trust issues.  I am certain that Lier was always conflicted about her love for YZ because he was so ruthless but my sense (when you take away the Lier as a character's terrible contradictions and inconsistencies) is that there was a unwilling respect for his capabilities and intelligence.  She is extremely well-educated for a woman of her era and she shares a love of reading with YZ - I suspect that DD had been a better actress, she probably would have conveyed that unwilling and uneasy attraction that she had for YZ despite her better instincts (kind of like Scarlet Heart where the heroine had loved both men, just differently, and one of them had disturbed her more but she initially could not put her finger on why - that probably should have been conveyed more in this drama too but it did not really get fleshed out).  YZ listens to Lier and values her opinion, but at the end of the day, YZ acts on his own.

 

With JK, it is more a maternal/sisterly/advisor love - she is constantly telling JK what to do and how to do it.  It's only when she leaves him that he stops listening to her.  I do not quite understand JK's character but it also probably has to do with how it was written and conveyed.

 

TM is important to LIer but I never got the sense that he was THAT important; it was more of a tool for the writers to use to push the plot along.

 

Lier did not seem to understand or to know really either JK or YZ; as someone pointed out, she died for her chivalry.

[thunderman1]

5 hours ago, xohelen said:

I haven't watched the last 2 episodes yet, but seen enough clips here and there and my prediction from earlier on the series that it's going to be a sad ending of Li's death in the arms of the king which I was inclined right on. 

 

Your point is interesting. I however, think that she died following JK not for the love of JK but just to follow him because she does not want to live a life being feeling like she's in a caged in Qin. Also, she doesn't want TM to grow up in the political palace fighting world. Therefore, I felt as if she turn the dagger on herself to follow her exlover JK not to teach YZ a lesson to trust but it's everything together. That YZ never had her full heart, she stayed with YZ due to pity and also for the safety of saving her exlover once again. Again, everything she choose to do is to protect JK. There's a lot of speculations we will truly not know the real intent to this triangle love between JK, Li, and YZ. All we know is a one sided love of YZ towards Li. Li may have fallen for him because she been married to him for 10 yrs. Then found out he was the childhood boy she saved. Now she pity him rather than feeling like it's LOVE. She is also too devoted towards JK not because of true love but because he's the father of TM. So at the end I think she really didn't love either man faithfully and truthfully. 

 

This was a good written drama, but disappointing sad ending. Should have kept a good ending and forget about following darn novels. What's the point of the title "The King's woman" when the king's woman is dead by her own act to died because she wants him to learn a lesson of "trust".... It should just be title "The king of Qin" ... 

Ah well you can blame the producer for this! 

[xohelen]

Ahhh, finally finish watching episode 48! 

I feel relieved now knowing that JK lost in the battlefield due to poison which was Li’s fault hahah. She technically killed her own senior. 

 

Now it all makes sense. She is torn between the two men. When one is not around she loves and cherish that man in front of her. She wasn’t shocked that JK died because she knows he will. 

Also YZ did not intentionally killed her, he was only testing her to see if she would kill him. Yet, she turns the dagger around and ran straight for his sword. We know she ran straight to it! Well well, not mister King’s fault she died. She aimed her body at his swords when she cause the distraction in his eyes by turning her dagger around! That was epic! 

I honestly did not feel sorry for her death. I’m more satisfied she is gone even though I know he loves her wholeheartedly! What he say to her was she didn’t know him well enough. Unifying the world cannot be done by sit and talk. Bloodshed has to occured in order for unification to happen. She didn’t understand that part nor does she believes his words for it because she knew nothing about political power and peace thru political affair. 

 

One thing that annoyed me this final episode was she felt that king killed many people and brought chaos to the world but yet she went out of her way to killed or injured all those soldiers who were just standing to block her from getting by. What makes her actions in that part any different than king giving order to his soldiers to kill enemy? She’s contradicting herself here lol. The soliders even told her king gave us orders to go easy on you and not use force. Well where is her love in this? She obviously didn’t care and harmed those soldiers to save one life. 

 

Their love story was certainly beautiful! Too bad it didn’t gave us happy ending with them having babies etc... I will not watch any of db movie but certainly will watch more of zbb movie. Going to miss him on screen. 

 

[dancingbee]

@xohelen Thank you for the comment. So why did Li poison the father of her son?  And why did she kill herself with YZ's sword?

[divethereal]

I skipped majority of episodes 44-47 and I first watched the final episode then went back to the previous episodes just to find answers because I need answers! First of all, may I say that that writers did a great  job on the plot development especially for the OTP BUT they seem to just couldn't wrap up the ending well. Some fans commented that they got lazy, they did not really think about the consistency of the events leading to the finale leaving us all confused. They can't justify the ending and I'm also not convinced. Here are things that are NOT consistent with the plot development.

 

1. Yin Zheng using TM to keep Li by his side - Remember the event when Li was tortured because she helped escape the hostage prince? YZ was READY to let Li go for her sake. He actually allowed her to leave the palace because he knows that letting her go will keep her safe from the schemes in the palace that can endanger her life. He let her go together with TM. This is one act that shows he truly loves Li. So I just don't understand why in the last episodes he stooped down to using TM to keep Li by his side when previously, he had allowed her to leave and moreover, Li already proved her decision to stay with YZ when she returned to the palace after rescuing him in the forest.

 

2. Yin Zheng appointing TM to be crown prince for him to be killed - Okay, YZ is overly jealous over JK even if Li already loves him. I'm not surprised YZ wants JK dead. But seriously,  if he harbors hate for TM, he had 10 years to eliminate him and STILL keep Li by his side. And if he wants to use TM to challenge Fu Su, then he could not have given TM to Li after he allowed her to leave the palace.

 

There are many other inconsistencies but these two are the ones I questioned the most.

 

I believe that even though Li's role was not portayed that excellently as Yin Zheng, she has a more consistent character. She has a big heart and always willing to help anyone in need. She's forgiving and does not harbor hate.

I believe she loves YZ but also still loves JK as a senior.  She believes in the ultimate goal of YZ to unify the states and have long lasting peace but she does not want war and more casualties. This conflict between them is intrinsic since YZ is offensive while Li is defensive. All her life as a warrior she stood with her grandfather to protect their place from the invading Qin armies. And the solution Li made was to die in the hands of YZ to teach him what it means to love. She had planned it all along. She does not really mean to kill Yin Zheng she just said things to YZ like "you must die", "I'm going to continue the plan of my senior", "I'm doing a favor to the world" to provoke YZ to lift his sword. But honestly, I don't understand yet what she's really trying to tell YZ, "what it means to love" is just too vague. It's certain that she wants him to learn a lesson which is to learn how to trust since he did not really trust Li and now she's gone.

And of course, the fact that Li chose to die just to teach him a lesson is the ultimate proof she indeed loved him. Telling him to be empathetic in order to be a good ruler equates telling him she loves him and wants him to succeed in his ultimate goal. In her last breath, she did not even think about her TM, in her final moments, she proved her love to YZ which is why YZ was so devastated as you can see in the final episode. 

[divethereal]

10 hours ago, dancingbee said:

@xohelen Thank you for the comment. So why did Li poison the father of her son?  And why did she kill herself with YZ's sword?

Li did not poison JK. She meant to give him a sleeping potion thru her servant so he won't be able to make it to the King's hall but Qing'er gave him poison instead. Qing'er put the sleeping potion to her drink instead. 

[peanutbutterjellytime]

Sorry I do not mean to offend anyone by saying this but I'm consistently amazed by those that dismiss - if not outright defend Ying Zheng's issues, actions or instability throughout the drama.  Only because he's a swoonworthy handsome King portrayed by Zhang Bin Bin, does not change how messed up he is. Dude is an immense prick I feel no sympathy for who essentially drove everyone away and reaps what he does. The price of being a ruthless leader who accomplished something no other has done I suppose.

 

 From the moment he used a method as backhanded as poisoning Jing Ke -a childhood friend who also saved him- to blackmail Gong Sun  Li to become his concubine I have a hard time rooting for this OTP.  If YZ is not a handsome young thang with serious bad boy vibes, but is old and fat, people would be finding it creepy instead of "romantic". Half the people wishing for Jing Ke to leave them alone would be singing a different tune - instead rooting for him to reclaim his lady love and whisk her as far away possible from the palace.    

[rosamundekingsley99_stv]

10 hours ago, divethereal said:

I skipped majority of episodes 44-47 and I first watched the final episode then went back to the previous episodes just to find answers because I need answers! First of all, may I say that that writers did a great  job on the plot development especially for the OTP BUT they seem to just couldn't wrap up the ending well. Some fans commented that they got lazy, they did not really think about the consistency of the events leading to the finale leaving us all confused. They can't justify the ending and I'm also not convinced. Here are things that are NOT consistent with the plot development.

 

1. Yin Zheng using TM to keep Li by his side - Remember the event when Li was tortured because she helped escape the hostage prince? YZ was READY to let Li go for her sake. He actually allowed her to leave the palace because he knows that letting her go will keep her safe from the schemes in the palace that can endanger her life. He let her go together with TM. This is one act that shows he truly loves Li. So I just don't understand why in the last episodes he stooped down to using TM to keep Li by his side when previously, he had allowed her to leave and moreover, Li already proved her decision to stay with YZ when she returned to the palace after rescuing him in the forest.

 

2. Yin Zheng appointing TM to be crown prince for him to be killed - Okay, YZ is overly jealous over JK even if Li already loves him. I'm not surprised YZ wants JK dead. But seriously,  if he harbors hate for TM, he had 10 years to eliminate him and STILL keep Li by his side. And if he wants to use TM to challenge Fu Su, then he could not have given TM to Li after he allowed her to leave the palace.

 

There are many other inconsistencies but these two are the ones I questioned the most.

 

I believe that even though Li's role was not portayed that excellently as Yin Zheng, she has a more consistent character. She has a big heart and always willing to help anyone in need. She's forgiving and does not harbor hate.

I believe she loves YZ but also still loves JK as a senior.  She believes in the ultimate goal of YZ to unify the states and have long lasting peace but she does not want war and more casualties. This conflict between them is intrinsic since YZ is offensive while Li is defensive. All her life as a warrior she stood with her grandfather to protect their place from the invading Qin armies. And the solution Li made was to die in the hands of YZ to teach him what it means to love. She had planned it all along. She does not really mean to kill Yin Zheng she just said things to YZ like "you must die", "I'm going to continue the plan of my senior", "I'm doing a favor to the world" to provoke YZ to lift his sword. But honestly, I don't understand yet what she's really trying to tell YZ, "what it means to love" is just too vague. It's certain that she wants him to learn a lesson which is to learn how to trust since he did not really trust Li and now she's gone.

And of course, the fact that Li chose to die just to teach him a lesson is the ultimate proof she indeed loved him. Telling him to be empathetic in order to be a good ruler equates telling him she loves him and wants him to succeed in his ultimate goal. In her last breath, she did not even think about her TM, in her final moments, she proved her love to YZ which is why YZ was so devastated as you can see in the final episode. 

Thanks  - this is insightful.

[marimari00]

Of all the things I was traumatized by, it was YZ’s brutality towards LiZhong’s loyalty. Was that really necessary? I understood then that he’s a complete psycho and ZBB the actor made me downplay Yin Zheng’s utter ruthlessness. That scene however was akin to having cold water splashed over my head. YZ is indeed one crazy mofo!

[raziela]

On 05/10/2017 at 2:51 AM, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

@renaoh I don't think that love is linear but your points are well taken and I have often seesawed back and forth about LIer and her love for JK and YZ.  Maybe it was the lack of chemistry between Lier and JK, but I often thought that their love was more brotherly/sisterly and she honestly did not have a lot of choices when it came to the men around her.  With respect to the virginity issue, I kind of shrugged my shoulders at that one because she did not seem too pleased when she learned that she was pregnant and her attitude toward TM blew hot and cold.

 

With YZ, everything was an issue because he fundamentally did not trust anyone and why would he?  He became king at the age of 13 and then somehow managed to survive to take the reins of the kingdom in his own hands.  He loved Lier as much as his suspicious nature would allow him to love anyone and as he stated several times, he did not choose to king of Qin but he is and therefore, he has to do what he needs to do even if others disagree with him.  He does not necessarily derive joy from killing others but that is what is expected of him and so that is the image he tries to maintain at all costs because fear = power in his book.

 

With YZ, everything began with his cape/cloak and it ends there too - when he descends the stairs after killing Lier, and then he falls to his knees and screams, we are back to the beginning when the narrator stated that the world would begin to hear his tiger's roar.  And of course for effect, a raven flies over him.  Very appropriate.

 

The writers and DD contributed to a lack of complexity within Lier but this role and this character had the potential to be more than just a warrior or a beautiful concubine - Lier, I think, was supposed to represent nobility and lack of greed - her needs, as stated, are supposed to be simple and she wants to protect everyone whom she loves.  YZ had to accept that love is limitless and that Lier could love others without impinging on her love for him - not sure that the drama ever reached this understanding or projection because Lier was not very good at communicating any of this.  @shimshimae said that love without trust could not survive and ultimately that is what happened here.  

 

As for Lier and JK, their love is more based on the "one that got away" and familiarity.  It feels too forced and part of it is probably due to the fact that the actors shared no chemistry and it was painful to watch.

Great post and very good catch calling back to the beginning of the drama

 

On 05/10/2017 at 8:10 AM, briaes said:

@raziela 

Hahaha. Hide in spoilers cos dont wanna be a party pooper to those who pretend it ends at ep 37. And also cos it's my broken alarm clock rant. Lol 

I think I can find consolation in your thoughts that "we should know".  I never doubted YZ as I feel he's consistent throughout. It's only Li that's causing all the confusion. I thought a love that started out so beautifully should end just as meaningfully. Sadly, the last fews eps is so savagely butchered - how YZ and Li's love is in an infinity loop of trust and betrayal again, how there's no connection between JK and Li's love and what and whom is she really protecting. Initially, I thought she would die to protect her one true love, but as the series progresses i thought hmmm maybe she would protect their love. But naddah... now I'm more inclined to feel that she's protecting her chivalry and noble ideals. And at the same time trying to teach YZ a lesson or 2 on how to truly love and how it feels to kill your most beloved. I'm certain about YZ's love as he's prepared to die together with her.

 

This series is actually beautiful on its own dissected parts. Its just not beautifully and logically put together.

 

And thank you so much for sharing about the novel. 

....

 

Btw, does anyone here know what are the general sentiments of the mainland chinese viewers on TKW? 

Very much how I feel.  There is a lot of good in this series too and I don't want to disparage the whole drama and I can see what the writer and directors were trying to do but as I said in a previous post there is such a big disconnect between the earlier parts of the drama and the last few episodes which I think is why so many of us are unhappy.  I think your earlier analogy of buying a ticket for one drama and ending up with another is exactly how a lot of us feel.  I'm not disappointed by a tragic ending.  I expected a tragic ending!  I just didn't expect to end up confused,  frustrated, disappointed and annoyed with the events leading up to that ending.

 

Answering your question: from what I can see on the posts on the show's official weibo.  A lot of the mainland viewers were as disappointed and confused by the ending and who Li Er loved as many international fans were.  There are way more defenders of L Er's character and DD's acting among the domestic audience though I think because DD is very popular and the majority of people watching and posting are DD fans so comments towards her acting are much more complimentary than on this thread!  I've seen criticism of the drama with the same issues we have but overall ZBB and DD's acting is getting lots of praise and the finale night the drama broke 1% which is good and a nice jump in ratings.  (Remember I'm using Google translate so this is not a 100% accurate.  Anyone who speaks Chinese please feel free to correct me )

 

On 06/10/2017 at 12:11 AM, tudorrose said:

I will really watch that very famous ep 37 one of these days. It's not only you but others say the same thing. I am at ep 43 and will continue until the last but will go back and continue to watch where i stopped at 24 so i will end at 38, that way i will have a happy ending. It's just a trick but it will still not hide the reality that their love affair ended sadly.

 

By the way, so many interesting posts that i want to answer but can't due to work. I haven't check the previous pages too but i'm sure more very good reactions were posted there. I don't know when will i be able to read them but i'm grateful for the members who post them. Their usernames are in my mind and i hope to meet them, and all of you, again in another drama's. Will be back here, will just finish these reports screaming on my table right now but will visit for a minute or two in between. 

Totally agree with you about the wonderful posts and members on this thread.  

Another ending suggestion I saw on weibo that I think was a good idea suggested that the drama should have ended in the episode where YZ takes TM back to Li Er and leaves them there because he believes he cannot protect her.  Thus we get a bittersweet end which doesn't undermine their love or leave us confused about their actions but realistically shows their values are too different (as @divethereal stated Li is defensive and YZ offensive) so they choose to be apart.  She loves him from afar and lives the peaceful life she desires whilst YZ commits the selfless act of love by letting her go, loves her from afar and goes on to achieve his dream. Though obviously because it was a book adaptation and everything was leading up to the JK assassination attempt they couldn't stop there.

 

On 06/10/2017 at 3:44 AM, rosamundekingsley99_stv said:

Spoiler

 

Maybe we are thinking too hard about who Lier loved - she can love both just in different ways.  Frankly, neither of her "relationships" with YZ and JK ever truly blossomed - both were hindered by external events as well as emotional trust issues.  I am certain that Lier was always conflicted about her love for YZ because he was so ruthless but my sense (when you take away the Lier as a character's terrible contradictions and inconsistencies) is that there was a unwilling respect for his capabilities and intelligence.  She is extremely well-educated for a woman of her era and she shares a love of reading with YZ - I suspect that DD had been a better actress, she probably would have conveyed that unwilling and uneasy attraction that she had for YZ despite her better instincts (kind of like Scarlet Heart where the heroine had loved both men, just differently, and one of them had disturbed her more but she initially could not put her finger on why - that probably should have been conveyed more in this drama too but it did not really get fleshed out).  YZ listens to Lier and values her opinion, but at the end of the day, YZ acts on his own.

 

With JK, it is more a maternal/sisterly/advisor love - she is constantly telling JK what to do and how to do it.  It's only when she leaves him that he stops listening to her.  I do not quite understand JK's character but it also probably has to do with how it was written and conveyed.

 

TM is important to LIer but I never got the sense that he was THAT important; it was more of a tool for the writers to use to push the plot along.

 

Lier did not seem to understand or to know really either JK or YZ; as someone pointed out, she died for her chivalry.

 

 

 

On 06/10/2017 at 7:04 AM, xohelen said:

Spoiler

 

Ahhh, finally finish watching episode 48! 

I feel relieved now knowing that JK lost in the battlefield due to poison which was Li’s fault hahah. She technically killed her own senior. 

 

Now it all makes sense. She is torn between the two men. When one is not around she loves and cherish that man in front of her. She wasn’t shocked that JK died because she knows he will. 

Also YZ did not intentionally killed her, he was only testing her to see if she would kill him. Yet, she turns the dagger around and ran straight for his sword. We know she ran straight to it! Well well, not mister King’s fault she died. She aimed her body at his swords when she cause the distraction in his eyes by turning her dagger around! That was epic! 

I honestly did not feel sorry for her death. I’m more satisfied she is gone even though I know he loves her wholeheartedly! What he say to her was she didn’t know him well enough. Unifying the world cannot be done by sit and talk. Bloodshed has to occured in order for unification to happen. She didn’t understand that part nor does she believes his words for it because she knew nothing about political power and peace thru political affair. 

 

One thing that annoyed me this final episode was she felt that king killed many people and brought chaos to the world but yet she went out of her way to killed or injured all those soldiers who were just standing to block her from getting by. What makes her actions in that part any different than king giving order to his soldiers to kill enemy? She’s contradicting herself here lol. The soliders even told her king gave us orders to go easy on you and not use force. Well where is her love in this? She obviously didn’t care and harmed those soldiers to save one life. 

 

Their love story was certainly beautiful! Too bad it didn’t gave us happy ending with them having babies etc... I will not watch any of db movie but certainly will watch more of zbb movie. Going to miss him on screen. 

 

 

 

20 hours ago, divethereal said:

Spoiler

 

I skipped majority of episodes 44-47 and I first watched the final episode then went back to the previous episodes just to find answers because I need answers! First of all, may I say that that writers did a great  job on the plot development especially for the OTP BUT they seem to just couldn't wrap up the ending well. Some fans commented that they got lazy, they did not really think about the consistency of the events leading to the finale leaving us all confused. They can't justify the ending and I'm also not convinced. Here are things that are NOT consistent with the plot development.

 

1. Yin Zheng using TM to keep Li by his side - Remember the event when Li was tortured because she helped escape the hostage prince? YZ was READY to let Li go for her sake. He actually allowed her to leave the palace because he knows that letting her go will keep her safe from the schemes in the palace that can endanger her life. He let her go together with TM. This is one act that shows he truly loves Li. So I just don't understand why in the last episodes he stooped down to using TM to keep Li by his side when previously, he had allowed her to leave and moreover, Li already proved her decision to stay with YZ when she returned to the palace after rescuing him in the forest.

 

2. Yin Zheng appointing TM to be crown prince for him to be killed - Okay, YZ is overly jealous over JK even if Li already loves him. I'm not surprised YZ wants JK dead. But seriously,  if he harbors hate for TM, he had 10 years to eliminate him and STILL keep Li by his side. And if he wants to use TM to challenge Fu Su, then he could not have given TM to Li after he allowed her to leave the palace.

 

There are many other inconsistencies but these two are the ones I questioned the most.

 

I believe that even though Li's role was not portayed that excellently as Yin Zheng, she has a more consistent character. She has a big heart and always willing to help anyone in need. She's forgiving and does not harbor hate.

I believe she loves YZ but also still loves JK as a senior.  She believes in the ultimate goal of YZ to unify the states and have long lasting peace but she does not want war and more casualties. This conflict between them is intrinsic since YZ is offensive while Li is defensive. All her life as a warrior she stood with her grandfather to protect their place from the invading Qin armies. And the solution Li made was to die in the hands of YZ to teach him what it means to love. She had planned it all along. She does not really mean to kill Yin Zheng she just said things to YZ like "you must die", "I'm going to continue the plan of my senior", "I'm doing a favor to the world" to provoke YZ to lift his sword. But honestly, I don't understand yet what she's really trying to tell YZ, "what it means to love" is just too vague. It's certain that she wants him to learn a lesson which is to learn how to trust since he did not really trust Li and now she's gone.

And of course, the fact that Li chose to die just to teach him a lesson is the ultimate proof she indeed loved him. Telling him to be empathetic in order to be a good ruler equates telling him she loves him and wants him to succeed in his ultimate goal. In her last breath, she did not even think about her TM, in her final moments, she proved her love to YZ which is why YZ was so devastated as you can see in the final episode. 

 

 

 

@rosamundekingsley99_stv @xohelen @divethereal   Sorry to spoiler your posts but my post was getting too long.  I think all your posts bring up great points particularly about the different types of love Li Er had for the two men and the obvious inconsistencies in the plot and in Li Er's actions. 

 

There have been so many great and interesting posts.  I will definitely give TKW credit for trying to be more than the typical Mary-Sue idol period drama but unfortunately some of the writing particularly in the later episodes and some acting was not up to par with the production's ambitions.  Regardless thank you to the cast and crew for their hard work because as we can see from the videos @meifang89 kindly posted everyone worked hard on this project.