Park Bo Gum ❤ Girl's Day Hyeri aka REPLY 1988 TAEK x DEOKSUN

[jongdae08]

I'm really glad to be part of this ship  You guys  are so insightful and yet and most importantly,, .peace loving hahaha

I've always been just a lurker but since the end is nearing for our beloved drama, might as well share a few of my thoughts. I like all the characters and has wept a handful of times because this drama is best at making simple gestures to be a highlight like and impacting like how JH's mom asked him if there's anything he would like to tell her because she is genuinely interested to know, how JH switched from one dream to the other and JB would like him to pursue his own, DS crying because her unnie's gosiwon is hardly livable. No sign of  makjang at all but will tug at one's heartstrings. 

Honestly, I've jumped from one ship to another and then to another, so yes, I started with SW-DS club LOL. He was portrayed as a filial son, loving oppa, responsible president aside from the fact that he is Go Kyung Pyo who was Siwon's sub in SNL (I'm an ELF). But then he has to dump DS and yes I was affected, good thing, there was Taek who called and asked her to go to a movie. JH who has observed everything was sadly, did not take action even though I felt that the coast has been cleared. 

But still, I am such an uncomplicated audience, when writer-nim gave us awesome DS-JH scenes, I easily got swayed and shipped them anyway. I like and am still giddy remembering how JH readily went to McDonald's for DS, asked DS not to go to the blind date and even pulled a prank on Jung Hae In. Later on, However, Taek emerged and his character had such a sudden compelling arc, I can't even hahaha 

So if I will be asked, I'll go with Taek. He had the "Timing". When DS got dumped by SW, he became a bit of silver lining on an already sad first snow confession dream of DS. Surprising me again when he came for DS when she was dumped by her date for the concert whose not been too lucky with her other dates basing on how she's being teased by everyone. He showed her how manly he can be by protecting her from the ball and carrying her bridal style. 

Not tp be mean, but if JH will not end up with DS, he would be like the character from "Project Proposal" from all the years and opportunities he wasted.

 

 

 

 

 

[darafangirl29]

@mellinadear @hafunohane

absolutely wonderful posts chinggus...

i cant even......

 

 

[iasd123]

Hey guys.. Funnish Fact: There an app on the Apple Store ( not sure for android users) that plays the sheep sound at ironic or appalling moments! So funny! It's called "reply meh"

[nearsea]

34 minutes ago, darafangirl29 said:

@mellinadear @hafunohane

absolutely wonderful posts chinggus...

i cant even......

Wait did @mellinadear write it herself? =O 

Always loved this writer's posts..Quite non-biased compared to db,I love db's recaps too though..

---

*Lesson to self: not to comment  half-reading a post lol.Thanks to @mellinadear for sharing regardless.

[aurora1205]

Up until this day this thread got me like

From tomorrow on 

[st4rdust]

Its D-DAY! I woke up at an unearthly hour at 5am, earlier than I need to when I went to work XD
 

Let's all come together, under Taekie's blanket as we enjoy the last leg of this trip.
Even though we have suffered highs and lows, we have kept each other afloat!
There is going to be an outburst of emotion tonight, that I am certain...

Maybe you would feel the urge to go to the other threads to... share your feelings...
There is already very eloquent, passionate posters who have defended the writer and 'ship the script'

During this very... unforgettable time,
I humbly urge that we show solidarity and silently protest against the unfair treatment of fellow friends
Especially, let's remember Baduk Etiquette!

 

This is a free world ( or as free as we hope), so my words are just a small suggestion..

Lovingly yours,
Stardust

[nicola_nikka]

"But with Taek, what the audience expects, the audience shall not get. His arc lacks the transparency of JH's 'coming of age' story. On the level of metafiction, what is happening instead is this: the writer, the narrative, the viewers, and JH are playing a game of baduk against Choi Taek 9 dan. And he is winning."

This paragraph  is so gorgeous I want to stand up and appaluse.

Can I hug you, Meliere

[sarsu]

3 hours ago, Meliere said:

Hi guys!  The mods have been merciful; my account is still here .. for now. Thank you darlings for your warmth and humor... a piece of my heart will always be in Taek's room.

I know some of you expressed worries in private messaging regarding blue's long promised 'novel' over at the MT, and wanted some commentary on it. PM3 would do a better job than I, but as of now the mods have set posting limits on her accounts, so she's effectively been censored from posting regularly (I think).  I'm hoping this post won't be deleted as well (as 95% of it analyzes the show) ... oh well, long live freedom of thought (lol).

Here's my 'Cliffnotes' write-up of said novel. Basically Blue's argument contains five points:

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1. That smile scene in ep. 1 = initial confirmation; the episode sets up the "spice" and "kick" of a bickering relationship
2. The series has maintained JH's "blossoming and deepening love", whereas DS-TK is shown in "spurts". Her main support: on-screen presentation of JH's POV during Taek's admittance of feelings in episode 10, and JH as a narrator in ep. 18
3. "Thematic" consistency for all Reply series-- i.e. the same franchise = the same plot direction. Linear plot line for '94 and '97. JH's arc is mostly linear, so he must be the husband. [My note: she's got thematic unity and plot structure mixed up; the two are different concepts.]
4. Present day clues = null; most of them could be applied to both husbands, so smoking Taek explains nothing. 
5. No first person POV or narration for Taek; his story is told in relation to others; his characterization is built upon other characters' understanding of him. 

And that's it. Okay, taek a deep breath and relax a little. Five points. Not too bad, right? Perfectly sound analysis, though not as dangerous as our roommates' minds here. 

And here's my commentary...

The Primacy of 'Firsts' 

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While the idea is laughably silly in real life, kdramas really do support the cliché of 'first = best'. You know ... first love, first confession, first kiss, first male lead always gets the girl (side note: RJY is not billed as the 1st male lead in official TVN websites) etc etc... Many JH shippers have firmly maintained, since the beginning, that TK does not stand a chance, because like Taewong and Chilbong his entry into the husband game is delayed. JH must be the husband because he's essentially first in line: first to be setup as a husband contender (ep. 1's smile), first to do swoony things for DS, first to take the couple picture, first to go noble idiot, first to confess, etc. There's even a war-cry of "doesn't matter if TK does it better, Jungpali will have done it first." 

If R88's setup was like any other kdrama, I'd bow out immediately and concede to this point. Sink and drown, wave my white flag and all. 

Blue's analysis is a reductionist one: if Reply 1988 is reduced to Reply Kim Jung Hwan, then yes, certainly the show is all about him as a protagonist and his struggles to fulfill his first love. 

What they've got wrong is this: R88 features multiple narrators, multiple stories, multiple 'main' characters, and multiple OTPs. While JH has narrated one episode only (ep. 18), DS has been a consistent first-person POV narrator throughout the show. If I must identify ONE character as the "main" of R88, it would be Sung Deok Seon .... not Kim Jung Hwan.

And here's the kick: JH is only 'first in line' if we consider the R88 narrative solely from his POV. 

DS, on the other hand, is running on a different clock, marching to the beat of a different drum. 

For Sung Deok Seon:

• SW is her first crush
• TK is first in priority (re: DR and DS's conversation in the staircase, and other moments we've observed here in our thread)
• The bridal run was her first romantic-sexual "awakening", and the first time she's reminisced about a 'swoony' moment alone in her room. 
• TK is her first kiss
• From DS, TK is the first to receive feelings undiluted by suggestions from friends or the assumption she'll be loved right back. 

 

Basically, one cannot respect Deok Sun's POV and arc as a main character and still argue that JH got 'first dibs'. 

 

The Bickering OTP Trope

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Not gonna lie, I fall for this one a lot. My past shipping history tends to favor tsundere, bickering, and tension over comfy fluffy affection (usually the domain of the forever friend-zoned second lead). So in this regard, I'm not 'biased' towards Taek (no seriously, in high school I was one of those girls reading HP draco and tom riddle fanfics LOLOLOL). 

Rom-com and chick lit writers love the bickering OTP trope because it provides a vehicle for: 1. sexual tension 2. comedic undertone 3. "that jerk had it coming"; satisfaction of seeing the 'cold' hero on his knees once he's in love 4. delaying the "getting together" until the kiss in the sunset and fade to credits (i.e. an excuse not to develop the actual relationship, because long-term relationships are difficult to write, whereas cute bickering writes itself).

Again, if R88's setup was like any other kdrama, I'd bow out immediately and yield to Team JH.

Blue's analysis is again reductionist: it assumes that only JH and DS bicker.

But like, LOL, she bickers with DR too right? So are they also destined? Haha, I kid. This is my main point: TK & DS's dynamics also contain a bickering side. "So you're a man, huh? Then take it off. (DS)" "Bora must have been you in the past life. (TK) Want to die? (DS)"  "YAH! (TK)" "Sung Soo yeon! (TK)" "Hey, I'm popular elsewhere. (DS) Where? (TK)" (ep. 18). 

And here's the kick: while JH-DS is primarily characterized by their bickering dynamic (ep. 1 begins with their bickering ... and by ep. 18 they are still bickering in the car ... what happened to development? 2015 couple bickered in the beginning, but by ep. 18 one could spot the deep affection between them), bickering is but a single facet to TK & DS's complex relationship.

People watching the show tend to forget that by 2015, LMY and her hubby will have been married for decades. For the writer to setup a convincing prelude to a long marriage, bickering should be an ingredient-- but it absolutely cannot be the motivating force (unless it's Reply We Got Married Divorced.) @mangachickava has written many a brilliant analysis on why a bickering relationship is ultimately inconsistent with DS's emotional needs.

The Question of POV

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This is something Team JH brings up a lot. Why allow access to his inner thoughts if JH's not the husband? Why show his reaction to TK's confession to the boys? Why allow him to narrate ep. 18? There must be a greater purpose..!

I've kinda sorta addressed the narrative "purpose" of JH's POV in a MT post:

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Have you guys noticed that, out of all the male Ssangmun-dong characters, JH is the most relatable? Characters like DR, JB, SW, and TK have such 'hardcore' unconventional traits that their identities are incontestably their own (DR by any other name would not be DR .. like I can't say some other character in a drama is a Dongryung). How many of us are class presidents? How many shove garlic up our butts? How many can't park nor tie their own shoelaces?

But I'll bet my last banana that everyone here can find a piece of their heart in JH. 

This is because the writer likely formed JH to be an audience surrogate. I'm not bringing up this term as an insult. All popular fiction needs an audience surrogate. Can you imagine Sherlock without Watson? Tolkien once admitted that "The Silmarillion" was less popular than LOtR because it lacked an audience surrogate. This is because as viewers or readers we yearn to identify with a character and experience that particular fictional world through their eyes. Have you guys noticed that JH is always watching, observing, or narrating? Through him we as audiences also watch, observe, and narrate. 

R88 is amazing in that it weaves together several narrative arcs. TK's arc can be read as an allegory of a single baduk match. SW's is about the metamorphosis of loss into attainment (it is through his father's death that he matures into a competent young man, falls for his BR, and gains an even larger family). In my opinion, JH's arc is a near-perfect bildungsroman (a.k.a. the coming of age story, the novel of education, the novel of formation etc...). 

 

But what I didn't dare write in the MT is this: JH is the narrator of his own story-- and his own story is but one of many narrative arcs in R88. JH's POV is most often framed as that of a spectator watching from the sidelines, rather than someone caught in the crux of the action.

A consistent theme in JH's story has to do with his hesitancy, and how that flaw essentially pushed him to the peripheries of the love triangle (also, his secret keeping meant that DR & SW would not have had the chance to support his love). This thematic idea is explored through POV shots-- we get so many scenes of JH looking but not speaking, considering but not doing, peeking through windows but held back by the looking glass.

It's also a reductionist error to assume POV = narrator = main character. First of all, JH is not a narrator per se; the first time we hear his first person voice is episode 18; the majority of the show is in fact narrated by DS and BR. Second, he is a narrator-protagonist only to the extent of his own 'coming of age' tale. Within the broader fabric of R88, he is an observer. And we all know one can be a speculator-narrator-observer without necessarily being the main character (e.g. Great Gatsby's Nick Carraway).

 

Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf A Non-Linear Plot? 

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Tbh, I blinked at the argument that JH's linear arc = husband. No writer would be caught dead thinking that a linear plot is a thing of marvel. Are any of the R88 episodes linear in structure? This is probably her weakest argument. My response is to just quote something I wrote before:

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The episodes so far contain the following elements:

1. Non-linear story telling (i.e. flashbacks galore)
2. Critical information withheld or missing
3. A reversal or surprising revelation near the end.

In this sense the show is constantly playing one-upmanship with viewer assumptions and expectations. Let's take an early example: in Episode 1, we assumed DS lost her place as a picket girl. It wasn’t until D-day that it was revealed, retroactively, that she got to take someone else’s place. That information was withheld from us and was never told “in real time” on screen. Same with SW’s crush on BR. Critical scenes/information were withheld, and were only revealed non-linearly at the end of episode 6 for the big reveal. Basically the list goes on and on for every episode, from important arcs such as TK-Papa bear’s relationship and Sunyoung finding cigarettes in SW’s room to Taek’s aborted confession in ep. 16.

What's ironic is that people keep on saying R88 is so obvious and predictable, YET at every turn predictions completely go wrong and shippers are left surprised and/or confused. See a pattern here? I believe individual episode structure also represent the direction of the story at large:  What’s been told in the beginning matters less than what will be unveiled at the end.

And guess which character’s arc aligns most closely with the aforementioned structure? Choi Taek's emergence from the story has consistently subverted drama conventions and viewer expectations. The hit list has been pretty dead-on so far... "Choi Taek is so innocent he can't possibly be a smoker". CHECK. “Choi Taek doesn’t seem like the type to be popular with girls.” CHECK. "Choi Taek is so clingy he'd never back off" CHECK. "Choi Taek is so oblivious he needs someone to tell him that JH likes DS." CHECK. “Choi Take needs mothering; he can’t even take care of himself, much less other people” CHECK. Etc etc etc, over and over again. What's left is this: "And anyway the husband is Ryu Jun Yeol." Guess which way the narrative is going to swing?

The reason why I was never fully onboard with JH’s story is because it felt (to me personally) that the writer was holding back on her creative/intellectual powers when crafting his arc. JH’s destiny has been fairly predictable since the beginning: everyone could spot the tsundere thing, the eventual crush on DS, his noble idiocy etc. For a show so careful with its storytelling, it’s like the writer just decided to flash everyone at point blank, and left few things to guesswork. It’s incredibly anti-intuitive from a narrative perspective if he’s to be the husband—why start the JH/DS loveline with the strongest scene (boner! boner! boner!) in your book and proceed to dial it down from there? (bonus: didn’t Chilbong’s entry into the husband game start off with a real kiss and his glorious abs? Suddenly JH’s half naked scenes seem less indicative of any real outcome.)

PD Shin & writer Lee are smart people, and given what's been presented in the episodes so far, I do wonder if they're trying to venture outside of the kdrama cosmology. I'd assume both are well read people. Outside of kdramas, unreliable narratives/narrators and metafiction are the film-and-fiction zeitgeist of the modern era. Taek’s transformation from “obvious” second lead to Mr. husband is actually more fitting to the tone and style of R88 than JH being end game.

 

Present Day Clues = Null

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The smoking thing is so much more that just a clue ... but I won't even bother.

Though I largely agree with her. Devoid of narrative logic.. clues are just clues.

Moving on.

Who the #&*$ is Choi Taek?!

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Team JH has largely ran circles around Taek, gawking at him as if he's some great exotic bird... They'll form one assumption (e.g. DS mothers him, he's clingy, he's a plot device to stop JH/DS) only to scratch their heads later and go, "he's too confusing... I don't get it." 

Blue's strongest argument is that JH's POV is featured more frequently than TK's. Given episode 18, I'll concede to this point. Though this does not mean we won't hear TK's first person narration in ep. 19 or 20.  Also, I'd argue that TK's POV is explored with equal punch and poignancy as that of JH's. I mean, sure, during Taek's confession to the boys, the camera zoomed in on JH's face and that sad guitar bgm played on. But TK's moment of realization was even more sophisticated in direction and writing: an ordinary squad hangout session transforms into a private moment of grief; the realization hits him and a god-awful silence falls; and then the background music).

To argue that Taek's POV is unexplored is a sad case of selective-viewing. R88 has had many a Taek-centric episode. Episode 6 is a major access point into his inner world, as are episodes 7 (relationship with papa bear), 9 (Taek as a baduk player; smoking), 13 (relationship with papa, "is it okay if I lose?"), 14 ("he hates interviews and asking favors... but"), and 16 (TK's POV regarding JH's feelings, the ultimate decision to give up on his first love). 

If both JH and TK's POV have been explored, why do the two characters seem so different? Why does Team JH insist TK is undeveloped?

My answer is this: reliable vs non-reliable narrative.

JH's arc is a case of reliable narrative (the "linear" quality Blue so loves); TK's arc is an example of an unreliable narrative (described by Blue as "spurts" lol). 

There's no confusion to JH's characterization. We know every episode the dude is going to hesitate, swallow his words, hide behind some tsundere behavior ... only to step up near the episode's end and do something sweet/warm/lovely/swoony. This formula has not changed for 18 episodes. What the audience expects, the audience shall get. The virtue of genre. 

But with Taek, what the audience expects, the audience shall not get. His arc lacks the transparency of JH's 'coming of age' story. On the level of metafiction, what is happening instead is this: the writer, the narrative, the viewers, and JH are playing a game of baduk against Choi Taek 9 dan. And he is winning.

First, as a ranked 6 dan player, he is kept out of the game for nearly 6 episodes (see handicap in baduk, and refer back to @shooastrid's brilliant baduk posts). But during this time, Taek surveys the board and makes his presence known. Baduk is all about maintaining your presence, and Choi Taek is technically never absent from the show (people are always talking about him- parents, friends, colleagues, random hospital people, DS's friends, freakin' Michael; his room is HQ, he is seen on TV and newspapers, etc etc etc). 

And then the writer (and by extension, viewers/the narrative) keeps on pitching moves against him: he sucks at using chopsticks, he can't work a walkman player, he's described as a 'god of idiots', he doesn't go to school, he's away all the time, baduk takes up 99% of his brain space, he's in a slump, he can't take care of himself, someone needs to mother him or he will starve, he appears fragile, he might die if DS doesn't love him back, he hates asking for favors so don't ask him to ask for one for you, he's too competitive to let DS go, his first kiss might be a dream, he can't park so no way he's gonna beat JH's jeep ... etc etc, the list goes on. 

But with each move 'against' him, Choi Taek 9 dan counter-attacks and gains further momentum. Over and over again he proves to be stronger than the 'handicaps' inflicted against him. Over and over again he subverts and rebels against drama tropes, cliches, and viewer expectations. ... until finally, in the last episodes, we sense him closing in on end game. 

This is a case of brilliant, brilliant writing. If Nolan, Nabokov, Kesey, and others are experimenting with unreliable narratives... why can't a kdrama writer? About time. I adore characters who are so complex, so bursting with life that they seem to "escape" out of the story itself. Whereas JH reduced his own agency via hesitation, TK fought for and earned agency every step of the way. And for this, he's going to receive all the pizzas and bananas in the world (and his Deoksunie).

 

Bonus: what about DS as a protagonist-narrator? Why ignore her voice?

Whose story has she consistently told, in her own POV and her own voice since the beginning?

JH or  ... dangerous roommate TK? 

 

 

@Meliere MEL!! Just let me say this once more....

 

...AND thanks for pointing out that DS's voice---is not something to bypass.  you deserve an award. Bye.

 

ps. Today is the day---- happy sailing chingus! 

 

#teamdangerousroommate 

[nicola_nikka]

If I end up being wrong about this drama I'm afraid I am in need of new glasses . It's seems everyone from dramabeans to that other writer thinking junghwan is end game. Sigh. The most confusing drama ever lol 

I will also like to remind you guys that we never got an answer over whether or not duk seon knew she was in the same bed as junghwan. It was made to be seem as a dream a la kiss

[mangachickava]

notice what his name means in Kanji...

also credit @mellinadearfor the twitter picture, BUT CAPABLE PEOPLE PLEASE FIND THIS FAN PAGE THAT HAS FIGURED OUT ALL THE SYMBOLISM OF EACH EP AND TRANSLATE!!!

 

[nearsea]

@mangachickava Share the twitter link kindly..that would help find out the fan page.

Omg taek =home/households?

@syaiira might help?Have you heard anything about this @syaiira?

[allegramente]

Awesome stuff as always @Meliere and @hafunohane...
 

3 hours ago, Meliere said:

Present Day Clues = Null

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I sail in this ship primarily because the husband-hunting game brings me here. I came to this drama expecting a good "detective" story that doesn't involve murder. A solid deduction of "The Husband" can be established half way through if one sets aside one's bias and is willing to face the "facts" though I agree with the argument that "facts" are not truths. Well, studying Taek as a character is fascinating but a game is a game. Luckily, I can have both.

But when the "present day" is dismissed as misdirection, clues and hints as "trolls", so that it supports certain direction of shipping, that is just sad considering how much care the writer has put in the denouement: a multi-threading complex narrative of how DS and Taek get together. I walked through this drama with a thrilling "surprise me!" vibe.

The insistence to fit  "external" conventions of leads  and what-not brings to mind the joke of Golden Globe award for "The Martian" for best picture in comedy and musical. Like "The Martian"? Comedy? Musical? Really? MWAHAHAHAHAHA...

[sara2908]

@mangachickava the comment is from db recap episode 18 page 7. 

wow, that's why DR said he love to be in taek's room reminding him of granpas house. Taek's room is home for the OT5

@Meliere standing ovation

[Meliere]

4 hours ago, hafunohane said:

In ep 6, Sungdaddy had a convo with Papabear about trading TK for his very own children. "How about a three for one exchange?" We know how badly Sungdaddy wants TK to be his son in law. LOL.

LOL three for one

.. brb ... *laughs up a hemorrhoid* 

thank you THANK YOU hafu. Brilliant post and oh-so-funny. Hafufufufufufufu [drifts off into laughter] God I love you guys, my sexy dangerous roommates. 

[nicola_nikka]

5 minutes ago, Meliere said:

LOL three for one

.. brb ... *laughs up a hemorrhoid* 

thank you THANK YOU hafu. Brilliant post and oh-so-funny. Hafufufufufufufu [drifts off into laughter] God I love you guys, my sexy dangerous roommates. 

Omg. Duk seon finally completed one f her father wish. She will appeared on TV as an education towards the world of baduk lol

[niniiinggg]

Hi chingudeul, hwaiting for live streaming later on 

After reading all your post in this lovely thread, suddenly a thought crossed my mind. I think, the writer built the character of JH such a 'strong' (or 'good' (?) Idk how to say it, sorry) so that IF in the end JH doesn't get the girl, the viewers wouldn't feel the same as CB in R94, and his character is still loved by everyone. I myself felt sad when seeing his 'joking' confession to DS.

Well, our ship is about to reach the destination. Be prepared, and let's celebrate together when we arrive later! See you all during live streaming! 

[iasd123]

Would anyone PM me the link to live streaming? 

[mariichii]

15 minutes ago, iasd123 said:

Would anyone PM me the link to live streaming? 

Me too please! Pm me. 

[Yesin Lee]

@iasd123 @mariichii done! 

[nicola_nikka]

LOVE IN THY EYES