[Drama 2016] Moon Lovers ❤ Scarlet Heart Ryeo, 달의 연인-보보경심 려 \^0^/ Soompi Kdrama 2016 Winner

[enigmatic_zephy]

9 minutes ago, trizha1 said:

 

Let's set aside the forced kiss from the last episode and his taking her for the illegal horse ride. I'm trying to figure out when WS forced himself emotionally and physically on HS. Before the whole visions shenanigans began, the split between HS seeking out WS or WS seeking out HS or whoever initiated conversation first was pretty even. Whatever emotional exchanges they had was a give and take. Even AFTER he brought her back to Damiwon and came to check on her the next day, WS wasn't the one to prolong their conversation. HS was the one who asked him to come into the make up room so they could talk. I don't see the forcing there. Agreed that when the King gave HS to WS it was in the context of a servant and not a lover, but he is unaware of their prior friendship. HS was never just a servant to WS. The only way I can see where you're coming from is if WS demanded HS love him or physically assaulted her which didn't happen this time.      

So chain of events is:

She is celebrating WE bday, he realizes he loves her. 

He wants to appear worthy in her eyes ( scar insult during bday and then temple). She realizes its his sore point. Helps him and that moment he is more sure than ever that he loves her and wants her. He tells her. She listens and realizes. And within hours or minutes she also realizes that  this very man is going to kill all of them whom she loves ( for her WS is not more special than 10th or 14th or 13th prince and def. 8th is the most important). Now she is scared. Within a day or two he forced kissed her because he was confused over her changed behavior. Then he confesses again.. with all his heart to make it once and final. She decides to take her stand and tells him its frndship from her end and she loves someone else. He tells her he will kill them. AND she knows he WILL kill them. Next day he comes to enquire abt him and she takes him to explain it again that she does not love him and he is confusing the feelings as her desperate attempt to 'calmly' sort out the situation.

As you point out, emotional give and take was balanced out. WS fell in love - is it HS's fault that he did? Is it HS's fault that she didn't? Is it HS's fault that she fell in love with someone else? Post that beach scene.. him not prolonging the conversation is a moot point? Did she prolong the conversation to flirt with him.. no.. she is in a dire situation and needs to sort this out without involving others or flaring this up.. she knows she is dealing with a bomb..because now she is not sure what may irk him and lead him to kill someone.. 

Telling her she is not allowed to love freely and wait for him..and threatening her to make it clear is FORCING. King has not given him right to her body or soul. What does he want when he says you are mine.. does he want her to be there for him.. ofc she is there for him.. no.. there is a definite romantic, secual, emotional dependence he is talking about.. that's private space.. and that woman is saying no to you. ( The same woman who cut herself because she didn't want to sleep with the king...)

When you tell someone you love them or that you want them to love them in return - you are ofcourse talking of both physical and emotional aspect. You are telling her to give up her body as well. Its implicit. And against wishes, even a touch can be of excruciating pain. and here its a woman who definitely has someone else in her heart.

 

Sorry, until I see the version where he said he's going to kill the man she loves and am sure nothing was lost in translation I'm not in agreement with your thought that she doesn't have a choice. My point is he's not forcing her to love him. He can pursue her all he wants, but at the end of the day, HS's feelings are her own and she DEFINITELY doesn't love him like that at this point. She sees him as a friend. And...uh..WS is totally in control of his own actions. He does have a choice, he DOES choose when and who to kill, we've seen that with the monks, and when he refused to kill the CP, so not sure where you're going there. 

That's a fair point. Because my entire disconnect hinges on the 'killing' statement. If he didn't say that.. then everything is irrelevant. I have already said, he can love her for all his whole life..for all i care.. love her protect her, care for her, cook for her..do whatever.. and he can also keep professing his love to her his whole life in hope she would change her mind someday.. BUT threatening her is a BIG NO..and even if she falls for him post threatening.. the love story loses its appeal..because it will always be a forced scenario and never a truly free will acceptance.

 

 

He might have said that, but in the end who was it riding off with her in the forest and trying to help her escape? And this was after the whipping scene...he might not have loved her then, but she definitely wasn't just some random person to him. 

 

 

[Gabi Bros]

15 minutes ago, enigmatic_zephy said:

I understand that too.. That's why I say its lazy writing. In character would have been to tell her, that he will still pursue her, he will love her all his life or whatever... that killing part is what is bugging him.. that's not WS.. that's just plain lazy writing

I feel the same. 

[40somethingahjumma]

I know that some people think that this is just some epic romance with a love triangle in it. I won't dispute that the romance is a major part of it but it isn't the only thing in this show. People are frustrated with Su... I am too to some extent but I also understand that change, especially change of mind and heart is extremely difficult. Impossible even. People don't change generally because of other people. They change because circumstances force them to.

I believe that's what's going on here.

To be frank, I don't think I really understood the role of the premonitions last week. But now having thought about it, I see them now primarily as part of Su's development and growth. I now think that they were necessary, not as a hurdle for the OTP so much but more as a shock to the system for her that the world that she thinks she knows is about to come crumbling down around her. Looking at it that way, I feel that I can understand her irrational reaction a lot more.

And quite honestly... it's been a long time in coming. Her view of the palace has been too rosy and really it's a dog eat dog world. She's been cocooned long enough and Uk quite unfortunately has aided and abetted in that. That fluffy, squishy romance is about to experience a huge kibosh, slicing and dicing it to bits. Unlike most people, I think it had to played out to its logical conclusion. The longer they were together, the more uncomfortable I became. Something was off after a while. And the cave is a brilliant metaphor for it.

So unless Su changes she cannot be with So.

This is what I think: The writer set up the romance as an archetypal modern romance. Swoony male lead that says all the right things, sweeping the girl off her feet. Now the writer is crucifying it. S/he burning it at the stake and saying that in Goryeo this kind of relationship cannot exist because it makes people fools. The writer wants to show us a different kind of romance... maybe the only kind of romance that is possible when schemes of violence are the order of the day. The only kind of romance that can exist between a 10th century man and a soon-to-be broken 21st century girl.

Bring it on, I say!

[enigmatic_zephy]

Hypothetical question

 

What i understand from sageuks is that when a prince or a nobleman is taken down (killed) , his entire household including servants etc are killed. because back in time, they are his people (loyal to him) and if left alive can plan a revolt.

 

So, if HS asks Wook to choose between throne and herself.. 

1. If Wook chooses HS - would that be a ethical choice?

2. If Wook doesn't choose HS - does that mean his love was true or that he wasn't serious about her?

[imposs90]

@bebebisous33

I like overall your points, however, although I don't understand Korean, the whole dialogue since last episode to the half of this episode revolves around "killing of wook from so". In the woods, her reaction was like "don't even talk to him or he will kill you", "don't contradict him now or he will kill you". What I love about Wook is that he is able to read Soo's eyes, fear, emotions, warnings,  [remembering what she said in ep 9 about Wang So] and act on them. He is highly receptive. 

She was too troubled to focus on any dark side reading of Wook. Hae Soo perception seems narrowed down only to So for some reason.

[andy78]

HS SEEMS HONEST...SHE TOLD HIM SHE LIKES A MAN...AT LEAST WAS HONEST WITH WS...I LIKED THAT ...COULD SOMEBODY TELL ME IF IN C VERSION RX CONFESSED 4TH PRINCE SHE LIKES A MAN ?

[addicted2drama]

i keep on refreshing ... to check if the subs are out 

[fuyukoneko]

6 minutes ago, andy78 said:

HS SEEMS HONEST...SHE TOLD HIM SHE LIKES A MAN...AT LEAST WAS HONEST WITH WS...I LIKED THAT ...COULD SOMEBODY TELL ME IF IN C VERSION RX CONFESSED 4TH PRINCE SHE LIKES A MAN ?

I don't think so. But Ruoxi and the 4th prince weren't friends the way HS and WS are. Ruoxi didn't really have any reason to tell him. Near the end of Chinese drama,  the 8th prince tell 4th prince about their relationship though.

[pujajain]

35 minutes ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

I will say something that might be controversial here but here we go: The person who needs to change here isn't him, it's HS... she's in Rome now not really doing what the Romans do but she still thinks she's in the 21st century, clutching on to her ideals and idealism. However, she is about to get a huge wake-up call and it's going to cost her big time. She will experience a huge paradigm shift

Completely agreed though in all fairness she has been thrust in a very unusual circumstances. 

I will also agree with another post where the writer mentioned that in original novel Ruoxi is well versed in this era and is capable of reading and interpreting subtle relationship nuances between all the players in the game of throne. It is also very clear early on that she is strong and her goal is to do the best to lessen heartbreak and survive once she realizes she might not be able to change things.

In contrast who it is hard to compare Soo who is holding onto her 21st ideals tightly and comes across as complete naive. You are right when you said she is served advise and information on a platter but she chooses not to internalize it and ends up risking herself and everyone around her. She believes that if So stays away from palace, he will have a nice quiet peaceful life....

[bebebisous33]

9 minutes ago, imposs90 said:

@bebebisous33

I like overall your points, however, although I don't understand Korean, the whole dialogue since last episode to the half of this episode revolves around "killing of wook from so". In the woods, her reaction was like "don't even talk to him or he will kill you", "don't contradict him now or he will kill you". What I love about Wook is that he is able to read Soo's eyes, fear, emotions, warnings,  [remembering what she said in ep 9 about Wang So] and act on them. He is highly receptive. 

She was too troubled to focus on any dark side reading of Wook. Hae Soo perception seems narrowed down only to So for some reason.

You're right. She was afraid of So's reaction, but also of Wang Wook's as well. I watched it a second time (meeting in the woods) and she was looking into Wang Wook's eyes. She saw his anger and was afraid of an escalading conflict. Yet, she only took it as a reaction caused by So... she didn't see his dark side as such.

[tessieroo]

1 hour ago, Diana Blanche said:

It seems like everyone hates Yeon Hwa after this episode, but I pity her. So how things are now Wang So will never love her. His heart belongs only to Hae Soo. Yeon Hwa will become the Wang So's queen. His wife. As a queen, she probably will want to shine like her mother-in-law But no woman can shine without love. As her mother-in-law, she will have to papered herself with gold to make herself look shiny. She's a girl full of ambitions because that's the way she was educated. Assuming that she will love Wang So (very unlikely) she will suffer a lot knowing that her feelings are not shared. If she will not love him, she will become a cold person with a heart full with hatred, selfishness, jealousy or worse, an empty shell without feelings, just like her mother-in-law. She will never know the happiness of love, so, I pity her.

 

Meh, I didn't like her way before this episode - I hated her back when she was all too eager to beat a servant girl and then Hae Soo. And I feel like she's always been like her MIL: full of selfishness, jealousy and hatred, even back then. And let's not forget, her deceased SIL, Madame Hae also married a man who didn't love her (Wang Wook) but she remained kind and generous - full of warmth and a loving person. It's all about choices and I think Yeon Hwa made the choice to be cold, jealous and spiteful a long time ago, she's hungry for power.  

 

Does anyone know anything about the plot Woo Hee mentioned to that minister guy to kill the King? I'm so confused.  

[blue003]

What was interesting in this episode was that HS's eyes are slowly being opened now. Even when WS is confessing his love for her, she stands her ground and tells him that she is in love with someone else. She just had a vision where she saw him killing Eun, but that didn't stop her from hiding the truth from WS. In the c version, Ruoxi had never told the Fourth prince about her previous relationship with the eighth. He had suspected her with 13th and the 14th but not the eighth. Unconsciously, HS still trusts WS and now maybe she might start questioning her visions.

With WW, she has started to fear whether his attitude will change after marriage. Even though she doesn't want to admit it, when Lady Oh points out that he will definitely change and tells her about the king and herself, HS is troubled. At the end of the day, WS was the one who took her away from the palace just to calm her down and WW has still not delivered on his promise. Which is why she has not thrown away the pin.

With WS willingly drinking the poison, I cannot help but wonder--- how is HS going to react? Will she start being close to him because of guilt? Or responsibility? Or not being able to feel at all?

 

[imposs90]

1 hour ago, briseis said:

“Shall we just run away? If you want to I wouldn’t mind.”

Source:http://dreamingsnowflake2013.tumblr.com/

 

@briseis  I love your gifs. Thank you so much for segmenting the episode to enable a much better grasp of the situation. I have a question: Do you translate the script? I've noticed in different occasions different translations of the same episodes so I am not very sure which ones to follow. They are quite contradicting sometimes.

Thanks a lot

[blue003]

17 minutes ago, enigmatic_zephy said:

Hypothetical question

 

What i understand from sageuks is that when a prince or a nobleman is taken down (killed) , his entire household including servants etc are killed. because back in time, they are his people (loyal to him) and if left alive can plan a revolt.

 

So, if HS asks Wook to choose between throne and herself.. 

1. If Wook chooses HS - would that be a ethical choice?

2. If Wook doesn't choose HS - does that mean his love was true or that he wasn't serious about her?

 

I think most probably what WW would want is to have both the cake and eat it at the same time. He wants the girl and the throne. HS is the love of his life and according to him right now, he needs the power of the throne in order to protect her. But the irony is that in order to get the throne, he will have to show his true colors and in a way it might scare HS as she has always thought of him as gentle 

[MadraRua]

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

The Poisoning Scene. Cr: pstlish

Spoiler

 

 

  

 

 

Spoiler

Poison Aftermath

 

 

 

 

Cr: Pstlish

Wang So... determined to carry on .... 

 

[blue003]

44 minutes ago, sriskaddict said:

wow thread is on fire. BTW putting dialogue about killing part aside, did u guys notice he also said to his " u noticed/knew for who i am" or something like that. So he is not going to pretend. I didn't quite understand what he meant by that?

 

Got the dialog "u saw me for what I was. There was no need for explanation or excuses"

Can someone explain this to me

 

Remember the episode when he is covered in blood and was attacking the stone piles. Any normal person would have ran away from there but HS tried stopping him and pointed out that he was hurt and asked if he was hurt else where. Then later on even when she gives him a list of not to do s, she also gently tells him to take care which no one has ever told him before. He even pushed her away cos of the mask removal but even then she still went to him with the bb cream solution. That's what he must have meant

[solelylurking]

7 minutes ago, andy78 said:

HS SEEMS HONEST...SHE TOLD HIM SHE LIKES A MAN...AT LEAST WAS HONEST WITH WS...I LIKED THAT ...COULD SOMEBODY TELL ME IF IN C VERSION RX CONFESSED 4TH PRINCE SHE LIKES A MAN ?

 

That's just plain thoughtless and kinda lazy of writers regarding HS's character, well at least to me. 

Not long a go she had premonition. She sure as the sun will rise on the east that he is a murderous-plain evil King. Not long a go she said some mean things to him and fear him. 

If I am her, I must still have that lingering effect (the fear, the worries) even if WS took to the sea. Would I be so dumb enough to blurt out I have a lover in front of this soon-to-be ruthless King that insist he must have me? Unless, the writers decide that stupid is a part of her character I said no. Your lover can be kill just by your words. Do HS wants to play bets on that too? They make her character not easy to be understand, tbh. 

In case if one of us said that water is her thing. I mean I get that sea can make you calm but not this extreme. 

I'm sorry if I sound too harsh on her but I don't get that. I don't get the story from her perspective. It's not believable. If you want to go to the preminition thing direction, stick with it for a while and make it so that it is making me believe her side of story and can symphatized towards her. I know you don't have time for that but at least not within a day. 

I'm not talking about IU's acting btw. I'm talking about HS's character. I say this first, just in case one of you misunderstand me and thought I bashed IU. I'm sorry. I must be temporarily crazy to question on the character of a already finish drama. 

Sigh

I need a major sleep.

[sriskaddict]

As someone mentioned "when in Rome do what romans do". That's exactly what hs needs to do if she want to survive in that harsh environment. Being radical will cause her death.I remember in c-version rouxi was really composed and cautious when she was in palace.even when dealing with Princes especially if my memory serves me right she bit 4th prince but then she said if he really wanted to force himself he could do so. She knew how bad and confining that society was. Her morals were same as of 21st century but adapted to that society quite well.

But hs is still free spirited and a little naive for palace life. I do think court lady death will shake hs.and bring a real change in her perspective.

Many people do think wook is coward but I understand him. I think best choice for him will be to leave hs, and for that I won't blame him. He has a lot to loose if he chooses hs and that's really a hard decision. Of both of them tries to be together I don't really see a good future.

Hs-so ship I think has a long way ahead of it and it has not even sailed properly. I think so will be gone for a while(may be some war), and that will make hs  miss him and realize her possible attraction for him if any. It will be a nice parallel to rouxi realizing her feelings for 8th price while she was away on trip After poison sequence, all of a sudden hs cant start to love so. Their bond might get strengthened.

[brielover]

On 9/24/2016 at 1:45 PM, littleloony said:h @brieloverd 

@bebebisous33

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[pwnkl]

4 hours ago, aypopa said:

NO WAY this is not love 

 

Totally! in HS's POV.. clearly her reason of accepting Wook is to fulfill her daydream of romance .. she just stated what's really her affection towards him.. "This man won't change" , "He won't hurt me" , "He'll make me happy" -- enuf said.. clearly not a good foundation of "marriage and true love"

Ok, I really don't want to talk about this.. ever since Baek Ah snapped out before.. I completely drop the Wook-HS ship (I just can't see it in a positive light anymore).. No matter how long or wherever their ship goes, it'll forever be haunted by Lady Hae or none the least Lady Hae will always be involve. Got to say this (I don't hate Wook, a matter of fact even before I said that he really loves HS) but Wook is pretty messed up.. he proclaim his love and ask her to be his wife... "What I didn't do for Myung Hee.. I wanna do it for you" I find it absurd. It's like proposing a ring that isn't initially for HS. (why I'm glad that the Hairpin So gave to HS wasn't the one meant for his mother) In a sense, I also want to question HS's unyielding principle of marriage "I don't wanna share the man I love" with Lady Hae always a remainder between him and her.. isn't that the same? ok let's say that his love for HS is 90% and 10% for Lady Hae still we can't say that he's entirely in it for her.. unlike So who completely surrenders himself selflessly to her to the extent that he'd rather die than to see her die. I also see it as a coward or nope a character of his which is playing safe.. somehow I take it as he's using Myung Hee in a way to pull strings over HS.. 

(Please don't get me wrong I'm not a hater of Wook, as a proof I did my pov in regards of his character before the Baek Ah incident)

I'm not really sure to this.. but if it's true that Lady Oh, said something like "Not him, He'll leave you too (Wook)" coming from Lady Oh, who's a resident in the palace and clearly a complete bystander's POV.. it maybe a hint that she see Wook same light as the King who had that "ambition"  he may have the ambition but it's not as greedy as Yo or YH or evil queen.. within his choice of pleading the King to marry her and live far away, that is one of the reason why I don't discredit his love (intentions).. However if the situation asks for it, will he finally go over the horizon for her.. or will he again just tip his toe and step back again? (I know he has a lot to weigh--family and it's commendable.. but I find it unfair that just because So have no family to take care of doesn't mean he had an upper hand.. right now he's about to throw, his lifelong desire.. to be with his family--being recognized, without the need to think twice.)

 Cr*p.. it ended up longer than I expected.. but one more thing,

LGJ should receive a daesang or the most prestigious award got nothing but praise for him.. I literally bawled my eyes during live stream, watching him drank poison, saying his last words.. trembling hands, voice.. and poignant yet tenderly looking towards HS as his last moment to see her.. he even fought the poison with all his nerves to chase her and probably with the thought that if I were to last for just mere seconds.. I want it to be with you doesn't matter last look/ in her arms/beside her.. as long as it's with her