[Drama 2017] Saimdang, Light's Diary 사임당, 빛의 일기

[gerrytan8063]

@liddi

"the rundown house (which Saimdang remained to the end of her days) as one with a thatched roof"

It could have been a tiled roof house (Giwajib) but Saimdang & family may not able to afford the roofing cost & opted for a thatcher roof as a cheaper option 

"Is it usual for the main wife and concubine to reside under one roof in Joseon times? "

Yes .....they do but they will have separate annexes if they can afford one

"but I think you once mentioned that there are no records of YWS' posterity with his concubine. Were the children from such unions, if any, not eligible to be entered into the family book of geneology 族譜?

In the Deoksu Yi clan genealogy book for Yi Won Su, there is no mention of Madam Gwon or her posterity or she will be recorded in the book since she is concubinage. Even if she had posterity, in the distribution of Yi Won Su assets there is no mentioned of Madam Gwon's posterity having a share since legally her posterity are illegimate, but Yi Seon the eldest did provide her an old age pension fund. Yi Won Su assets were share among his 7 posterity (4 sons & 3 daughters) from Shin Saimdang who were all presence in 1566 

Yi Won Su distribution of assets in 1566 -  Yulgok Yi I copy

[hmseen]

1 hour ago, plainenglish said:

To help you appreciate SLD more and for your binge watching, the spoiler-free synopsis can help you; surf to https://campusconnection.blogspot.com/2017/01/saimdang-lights-diary-synopsis-by-episode.html

 

Please read "Song Seung-heon courted for Saimdang PD’s next drama" at http://www.dramabeans.com/2017/01/song-seung-heon-courted-for-saimdang-pds-next-drama/

"... his next drama will be an adaptation of the novel Wind, Clouds, and Rain, about the political rivalry between Empress Myeongseong and Heungseon Daewongun in late Joseon."

 

Kamsahapnida @plainenglish for all the heads up

[hmseen]

11 hours ago, liddi said:

@hmseen It is good to know that this drama is drawing you in, and I'm glad that translations and discussions are helping to fan your interest too  Please do share your thoughts here as you progress through the drama! As for SSH and LYA... it was really amusing because initially, even before there were any scenes between Gyeom and Saimdang as adults, there were comments about how LYA had far better chemistry with YSJ, and little to none with SSH. Now, I don't think it is possible to deny the exquisitely beautiful, unforgettable chemistry between LYA and SSH, bringing to life the timeless love story of Saimdang and Gyeom. 

 

I was initially drawn to this drama because of SSH. A big fan of his... but initially when i was watching the first episode...I was a bit blur... and the pace was a bit slow to me.... hence I put this drama at the back bench... as I was following the discussion and reviews and analysis...I piqued my interest again... so there I go.. and now that i have gone as far as Ep 5... I know I should have followed this drama closely... oh well .. binging is good too... it shortened the suspense period of waiting for episode releases... LOL! I am looking forward to those chemistry between them... I know SSH can carry it well.. he always do in all his projects...that's what I love about him.. thanks @liddi for the encouragement...  

[liddi]

@gerrytan8063 I love your positive view of the roofing, though I am afraid I might have to disappoint you, since we see thatched roofing during their first introduction in the rain, and the following morning  

Madam Gwon will just have to make do without a tiled house, assuming she stayed with Saimdang and her children in her latter years  

It does sound like the oldest son is, by default, executor of the estate. Speaking of the division of assets, were the women allowed to hold equal shares, or were the bulk of the property given to men? My understanding is that women had considerably more freedom and rights in the Goryeo dynasty, compared to the Joseon era.

@hmseen I am glad that you have decided to revisit the drama after setting it aside previously. Definitely hope that you will find much to love about it!  I am still unable to let go despite it having ended, and reading the novel is not helping matters   

[gerrytan8063]

@liddi

"It does sound like the oldest son is, by default, executor of the estate. Speaking of the division of assets, were the women allowed to hold equal shares, or were the bulk of the property given to men? My understanding is that women had considerably more freedom and rights in the Goryeo dynasty, compared to the Joseon era."

Yes, Yi Seon as the firstborn & son will be the executor of the estate but he will have a larger share because he needs to maintain the ancestral memorial rites. It is one of the reason why Korean women doesn't want to marry firstborn son

During the Goryeo Dynasty & early Joseon period (since Jungjong was only the 11th Joseon King would consider, early Joseon period), daughter have equal footing with sons with regards to their rights to inherit property. The Gyeongguk Taejeon (경국대전, 經國大典, The Codes of Law) stipulated equal distribution to all heirs, male & female  & it was firmly guarantee  by the provision of the codes with the main assets being the land & slaves.

For example under the Sacheon (사천,私賤, private slavery) practice (private slavery was only abolished in 1894 in Joseon after the Gabo Reform), Maid Hyang was the slave/maid that was given by Shin Saimdang family at the time of her marriage (like the olden Chinese custom where a servant girl will accompany the bride to the groom house & continue to serve her)

It was not until the 17th century when Joseon adopted a more dominance orthodox Neo-Confucianism ideology where it goes through dramatic changes. Ancestor worship became the main doctrine & favours the eldest son who presides the ancestral rites duties therefore gradually replace the equal share of inheritance with unequal division of assets which makes the eldest son as the principal heir

[liddi]

@gerrytan8063 Thank you so much for the insights into the rights of women from the Goryeo to Joseon periods. With respects to Hyang, I presume she is what is called 陪嫁丫鬟? Correct me if I am wrong, but it appears that Hyang's mother was likewise the 陪嫁丫鬟 for Saimdang's mother as well? If so, does that mean the maid was allowed to marry and have her own family, but by extension, her family would, too, become slaves in her mistress' household?

In the early Joseon period, apart from rights to inheritance, were women barred from holding specific positions, such as Mae Chang's ban from participating in the Dohwaseo competition because of her gender? I am also curious as to the law that prohibited women from going to Mt. Geumgang alone, even to the extent of imposing punishment on those who did. What was the reasoning behind that law, and how then, did the historical Shin Saimdang manage to do so without suffering any repercussions? Had the law changed by the time Shin Saimdang went?

[gerrytan8063]

@liddi

"If so, does that mean the maid was allowed to marry and have her own family, but by extension, her family would, too, become slaves in her mistress' household?"

Yes the servants are allowed to marry & be allow to leave the household by consent or being release even at times given some land title deeds for some small farming, or else they & their posterity are the property of the household. Joseon class society is very rigid...just look at the word Sacheon (사천,私賤, private slavery), how crude a word to use to denote a class of society as Cheon (천, 賤)

"were women barred from holding specific positions, such as Mae Chang's ban from participating in the Dohwaseo competition because of her gender?"

Women place in society is the domestic household, to bear children & to look after in laws, her husband & children, it is the same all over the world at that time. Dohwaseo will be out of bounds for Yi Mae Chang even in the Deoksu Yi genealogy book, she is not in as an entry

"I am also curious as to the law that prohibited women from going to Mt. Geumgang alone, even to the extent of imposing punishment on those who did. What was the reasoning behind that law, and how then, did the historical Shin Saimdang manage to do so without suffering any repercussions? Had the law changed by the time Shin Saimdang went?"

Of course there will be a law since Joseon women completely had to conform to Confucian ideals of purity, obedience, chastity & faithfulness & usually hidden from outside world, remember Joseon women covering their faces with cloaks. Therefore running up Geumgangsan alone for hermitage unescorted, will be seen as inappropriate manner. As for Shin Saimdang suffering repercussions, it was not recorded

[liddi]

@gerrytan8063 Wow, until you mentioned it, I did not even notice that 賤 referred to a class of people, which is indeed a derogatory term to impose wholesale based on their birth. Curious, I then went to look up the other classes in Joseon society in Wiki, if only to see what the words actually meant:

Yangban 兩班 - aristocrats
Chungin 中人 - upper middle class of commoners, including bureaucrats, highly educated skilled workers
Sangmin 常民 - commoners who have clean professions, including peasants, labourers, fishermen, craftsmen, merchants 
Cheonmin 賤民 - lowest caste of commoners, based on professions considered "unclean", including butchers, shamans, metal workers, gisaengs, prostitutes
Baekjeong 白丁 - outcasts

Of the names,  I am unable to immediately understand why the aristocrats are referred to as 兩班, and the outcasts 白丁. What is the history behind such terms?

Was Shin Myeong Hwa's family from the Chungin 中人 class? Considering he had been stripped of his government position, would his family have lost their societal status? Or would their class still have been hereditary unless they committed a grave crime such as becoming a traitor, which terrified Hwieumdang when MCH started colluding with the Japanese?

Also were marriages between the social classes acceptable, or frowned upon, such as one which would have taken place between Gyeom and Saimdang?

[gerrytan8063]

@liddi

"Of the names,  I am unable to immediately understand why the aristocrats are referred to as 兩班, and the outcasts 白丁. What is the history behind such terms?"

In Korean, you can't take the literally meaning of what the Chinese characters actual meaning but written in the context of Korean conjure meaning

Yangban (양반, 兩班) as the hanja meaning 2 groups which denotes the Civil & the Military literati bureaucrats. In Joseon the Civil bureaucrats is higher importance & rank than Military, this is the reasons why Joseon suffer so many invasions

Read the Chinese wiki, better explanation than English

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/兩班

Meanwhile for Baekjeong (백정,白丁). Baekjeong was an archaic Chinese word for illiteracy. Baekjeong also denotes by 2 definition. One is that they can only wear white clothings, so they are known as the people who wear white clothes & the other is that their house are forbidden to have install any door locks/studs/nails (門釘)

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/白丁

"Was Shin Myeong Hwa's family from the Chungin 中人 class? Considering he had been stripped of his government position, would his family have lost their societal status? Or would their class still been hereditary unless they committed a grave crime such as becoming a traitor, which terrified Hwieumdang when MCH started colluding with the Japanese?"

Shin Myeong Hwa is Yangban class & he is from Pyeongsan Shin clan (평산 신씨)....governmental service doesn't denotes his class but his family lineage

Shin Myeong Hwa didn't serve or hold any officialdom due to political conflicts. But he passed out as "literary licentiate" (Jinsa,進士) in Jinsagwa examination (진사과, 進士科,Literary Licentiate Examination) The licentiate examinations were of two kinds: the Classics Licentiate Examination (Saengwongwa, 생원과, 生員科) that examined candidates on the Four Books and Five Classics of China & the Literary Licentiate Examination that tested skill in composing a variety of Chinese literary forms.)

The King can demote you to government slaves for treason

"Also were marriages between the social classes acceptable, or frowned upon, such as one which would have taken place between Gyeom and Saimdang?"

No, you have to marry within your class - 竹門對竹門，木門對木門", although these days the wooden door faces the steel grill gate. If a woman marries below her class, she will have to follow the social class of her husband & her children too

As for Yi Gyeom, although he is a member of Yi Royal Household but he is still of Yangban class, the Jeongju Yi clan, so they are compatible in marriage

[liddi]

@gerrytan8063 You're right - the Chinese Wiki helps to understand the context and origins of the names given to the classes - thank you!

I love your 木門對鐵門 wooden door facing steel gate comparison  I understand the woman having to follow the social class of her husband if she marries below her class. Does the converse hold true as well, in that if she marries above her own class, she automatically follows her husband's class, or will she remain within her own? I presume in this case, her children would automatically belong to her husband's class, or am I wrong?

[plainenglish]

I logged in to iflix to watch SLD but could not find the drama anymore. I used the search box and looked for SLD in the alphabetical listing but couldn't find it anywhere.

Can anyone who uses iflix confirm if indeed SLD is no longer available there?

If iflix doesn't have SLD, that means that SLD's international version (with English sub) is no longer available anywhere on the Internet.

[gerrytan8063]

@liddi

"I love your 木門對鐵門 wooden door facing steel gate comparison"

It is "木門對鐵閘門", usually said in Cantonese, especially those who know what kind of housing is available in Hong Kong

"Does the converse hold true as well, in that if she marries above her own class, she automatically follows her husband's class, or will she remain within her own? I presume in this case, her children would automatically belong to her husband's class, or am I wrong?"

No, she doesn't.....if the woman marries above her class  she cannot be the principal wife, only concubinage  her posterity will follow her class

This is the reason why Min Chi Hyeong took extreme effort by buying an extinct genealogy book Hanyang Choi clan to have Seok Sun get an identity change & be upgrade to Yangban class to become his principal wife, although in the novel mentioned that she was the "seed" of a Yangban father. I am sure that Min Chi Hyeong doesn't want the promised posterity/sons to follow their mother's status as the daughter of tavern Proprietor

[liddi]

@plainenglish I just checked iflix and it is still available for viewing. Did you search for "saimdang"?

 

[liddi]

@gerrytan8063 I see. I guess the rule of thumb in an unequal marriage is that the wife and children will always follow the lower class, regardless of whether it was the husband's or the wife's. It would certainly prove a deterrent for those who are considering it, unless of course, they are as resourceful as MCH and doctored the lineage of the intended spouse.

Real life is making claims, while I am also dragging my feet a little with regards to the novel. 5 more chapters left and still no sign of Vol 2. Gah!

EDIT: It's out! At least the Korean novel! Now please let the C-version be available for order soon!

[gerrytan8063]

@liddi

" It's out! "

It was out since May 11th

[liddi]

44 minutes ago, gerrytan8063 said:

@liddi

" It's out! "

It was out since May 11th

It was? I kept searching Naver, but only saw it today... hmm.... 

Regardless, it's out!  Now, to refresh Humanbooks webpage repeatedly until I see it there too 

EDIT: I compared the publication dates for Vol 1 - the Korean version was released 15 Mar 2017, while the Chinese was published 29 May 2017. Assuming this is the expected timeline, I guess the C-translation will only be available end of May or beginning of June. Wonder what color the C-cover will be. Although initial news of the novels in March indicated it will be pink, I hope they follow the blue-grayish hue of the Korean instead, for purely aesthetic reasons.

[plainenglish]

19 hours ago, liddi said:

I just checked iflix and it is still available for viewing. Did you search for "saimdang"?

 

Yes, I did search for "saimdang" and "Saimdang", but I got the message that "saimdang" is not available in the iflix catalog.

After I emailied iflx support, I got the reply that "Saimdang" or "Saimdang, Light's Diary" has not been added to its catalog.

Then, I found from my Chrome History the direct link to SLD, and it works; I can watch SLD.

iflix needs to get its act together!

[plainenglish]

Saimdang and everyone else want to go to Keumkangsan!

Screenshot below is from the finale of "Rebel: Thief Who Stole The People" (MBC) shown several days ago. In this scene, the dying villain says, "When I was young, I always wanted to go and see Mount Geumgang. But people said a woman was not supposed to go out on her own."

[liddi]

@plainenglish That's really strange since I don't have any such issues and the few times I contacted iflix cust support, they have been helpful and efficient. Either way, it's great that you managed to watch it once more. I'm just grateful iflix offers it since it is my only source of English subs for international version seeing I don't subscribe Oh!K channel.

[hmseen]

it only occurs to me recently when I was watching Ep 5... I have this nagging thought that Lee Young-Ae looks so darn familiar to me...

I am not sure if you guys follow Hong Kong movies/drama, but LYA definitely resembles a lot with Lin Ching Hsia when she was very young, a very famous Taiwanese actress in Taiwan and HK that did lots of cross gender roles.