[Drama 2012] Bridal Mask 각시탈

[Guest JenA313]

Shipping war! My last one witnessing this in Soompi was during the DH1 heyday (GukMi vs SamMi anyone? keke)
My take on it:
I can see why people find Mokdan to be less interesting than Rie. IMO she is, bless her brazen heart, really written to be the antithesis of the twisted, dark, convoluted people she’s surrounded with. I do love my heroine layered and complicated but somehow here, I understand why she’s specifically the ONLY main role with a clear black and white POV. In this twisted universe, KT needs someone who is as steadfast and reliable as she is by his side. I’d be honest that if I have it my way I would have her question things a little more – but because the drama’s by and large bigger than just a love story (this epi especially proves it), what this drama gives me is already more than enough. Not to mention I ADORE their heartbreakingly secretive love. For that thank goodness Joo Won-Jin Se Yeon’s chemistry is off the chart!

[Guest RoxyYEH]

@coolreborn Ikr. I love how Chibi Gaksital is pointing his iron flute at us trying to be intimidating, but he only comes off as cute, pfft.
Aughh all this talk about either KT or MD, or both dying at the end is making me nervous. I hope not. I said this before... but right now I can't and won't accept any ending that's not a happy one. 
My happy ending: KT alive living happily with MD by his side. With Joseon finally free from the Kishokai/Japanese oppressors.
That ending is the only conclusion that makes sense in my mind. Cause throughout the drama there's been nothing but unfairness and suffering. Like the torturing, comfort women, etc. These characters have been through so much, experienced so much, fought their heart out, and many have made sacrifices and died for the cause. Witnessing all that... how can we as viewers accept a sad ending? It is only right to give them the conclusion they deserve.
If they kill off either KT or MD at the end... writers, you've made an enemy.

[raewonkim]

andy78 said: I  also have a bad feeling that Kang-to and MD will die in the end. I’m seriously hoping it wouldn’t happen...@serendipity8989, Thank you translatIng

[sheza]

Maybe not dead but like Princess' Man they could potentially make him crippled or something.

[mrdimples]

just back home. Not sure if anyone posted this.

credit Joowon Thai Fanclub

BTS of Kangto and Rie in ep 19
thanks to darling Yanna for showing the link

[coolreborn]

@mrdimples  :  Joo Won said he likes sour drinks/stuff. He even ate a whole lemon fruit like its sweet (in 1N2D). And he likes running, one of the things that he say he is good at *he did marathons*. And it looks like Joo Won and his mother are quite close.

[mrdimples]

coolreborn said: @mrdimples  :  Joo Won said he likes sour drinks/stuff. He even ate a whole lemon fruit like its sweet (in 1N2D). And he likes running, one of the things that he say he is good at *he did marathons*. And it looks like Joo Won and his mother are quite close.

[coolreborn]

@mrdimples : I think I went there already, the Joo Won thread. And I saw some of the guys here in there too. Sometimes when I like an actor I become a bit obsess with them. lol. 

[coolreborn]

going home!!! To Gaksital episode 20!!!! Yes!!!

[raewonkim]

OH MY GOD, that scene when Shujin embraced Mok DAn makes me cry. When Lee kang to clasp the hand of Mok Dan makes me cry even more. These are sacrifices which they have to endure until the day Joseon will be freed from enemy. 
Until now that "comfort women" is still an issue. Japan in those days are indeed very cruel. 

[Guest stoffkimba]

*woah* That's quite a [censored word] storm we're stirring up here. Let me just get my goggles. .... OKi, back. *hm* This is getting quite lengthy (my apologies to everyone who only wants to spazz about lovely JW , but if you read these posts, I guess you'll understand why I have to reply, right?)
I'll just leave in the quotes, because I guess it would be annoying for anyone to have to backtrack, if you want to reread what somebody said.

@serendipity8989: [i quoted mrdimples' text, because that was the last one on this topic, but I'm looking at your post while writing this.]
First off:  While it's wonderful that you took the time to answer me, I was pretty shocked/hurt at some of the things you seem to have found in my writings. TT-TT *sigh* This is one of these times when I'd prefer to be sitting across from you, steaming cup of tea in hand, instead of talking over the internet. I understand if my posts are too long and long-winded and if people don't read what I said, but with your post I had the feeling that you haven't really read what I wrote (or maybe, the way I'm expressing myself is just not clear enough?) and then got mad at me. Or maybe you only read what was directed at you and not at hayablue? *hm* (But maybe you weren't angry and it's just because of the bold face?)
I just got the feeling that you are assuming the worst (which is probably because you have heard a lot of terrible things and because this issue is, for every one involved, a pretty emotional one), just notice some "key words" (that hit you where it hurts) and get angry. That is quite understandable, though. I've been there myself - when I read what you wrote about Germans and Jews (I'll try to explain again why in a bit! hold on ), I first had to calm down so as not to be mad at you - because what you said wasn't wrong, it's just that it triggers all the wrong places. So, I guess this is the situation we're at. Anyways, thank you again, for replying. Maybe the way I'm writing is just too long-winded, so I'll try to explain what I meant, again:

1. Wikipedia: I did not use Wiki as a source, but as a quick hint to give to mrdimples. Again: what else am I to do? Scan a bookpage (apart from that being illegal, anyway)? This also goes @hayablue77 (I've read all you said, hon, I'm just not quoting it! thanks for replying!). *hm* To both of you: Apart from that we totally agree on Wiki (a lot of the things you said is just saying exactly what I said in different words. o_ô But then again, maybe it's a language problem.)
But with regards to your statement that "on university level there are books you can just take as fact". No. Just NO NO NO NO NEVER! Maybe in your first semester, or as and undergrad, or something. But a serious scholar will always take everything with a grain of salt (and that is recommended for students as well - that's the most important lesson you learn in uni, I believe). That's the whole point of quoting in academic texts: you are not saying that something is a fact - you are just saying: "Well, this and that scholar said so, and I'm just going to kind of trust this person on this matter. Of course, if what he/she said is wrong, I'd change my opinion." That is why in the academia "truth" is always up to change at a moments notice. In historic studies, it's the finding of new sources (maybe a document, a ruin, anything) that easily overthrows everything that's come before.
That was the point I was trying to make when I talked about books on Emperor Hirohito. Obviously, these are "university level" books I was talking about. o_ô
And just to make that point clear: I am well past the point where I am "just" consuming "university level" writing, but producing it. And yeah, just to reaffirm that we are actually not disagreeing about those things at all(!): I would tell my students not to use Wikipedia as a source in academic writing! Obviously! (But, Wiki often has a list of sources, which can give you a hint, maybe a literary recommendation.) Soompi isn't an academic essay, though. o_ô

2. Japanese reactions: I reread my posts trying to find where I said that the Japanese wouldn't be happy with Shunji, but couldn't (could be that I said so anyway? but if so I meant it differently): I take issue with the demonization of Shunji. But from a narrative point of view - I don't get where that is coming from (in the story)! If he'd have just been a cruel/crazy Japanese from the get go (like Goiso), I would have totally bought it. (And please don't anybody give me the old "he's got evil Japanese genes" line. That just puts you in the same place as that new chief of police who thinks Koreans are subhuman because of their genetics) That has nothing to do with real live Japanese, though. *hm* I've read this thread. Every single post, and I've never read anybody saying that Japanese actually complained. (A lot of people are imaging things, though! And yes, as I said, I could totally see some Japanese complaining, as well. For completely different reasons, though!)

I really really hope this gets shown in Japan. (The little fangirl within me is actually clamoring for a Japanese anime version, a new manhwa, a c-drama version, joint video games production - the whole contents package. Pretty please.) Anybody who watches this will of course be on the side of the Koreans, just as anybody who watches "Dances with Wolves" (just to give an example) be on the side of the Amerindians, or anybody who watches Lagaan will side with the Indians! Everything else makes you subhuman. So, if "normal" (not conservative ***holes)/young Japanese, who (thanks to rewritten history books) haven't heard that much on the occupation, watch this drama and side with the Koreans - what will happen?! Will the political right come under pressure? Will there be discussion and media wars? Japan is kind of in a state of (small, but growing) leftist upheaval atm, because of the nuclear reactors, anyway. Pretty much all Japanese women are in love with Korean culture. This drama could be like R.I.P. comrade at the hanging. *BOOM*
At least, that is what I am hoping for. East Asians do really really need to talk about these issues and what could turn the tide are those Japanese (women, freedom fighters, professors, youngsters, hippies, Okinawans, Ainu, Burakumin and *gasp* Japanese Koreans - yes, there are those as well) that have been quieted by the conservatives. I hope the Japanese comfort women sb mentioned earlier come forward to join their sisters and fight the injustice. Here's to hope! *cheers*

About Koreans: yep, that's what I read in this threat and on Dramabeans. (@mrdimples also said so, later, right?) I guess, there's all sorts of people out there and they just want to protect their "oppas" and live comfortably.

I say: Don't spare anybody! Show the evil people as evil as they were. But don't loose your own humanity in the act and just assume that everybody in a group of people (all Japanese, all Koreans, all men, all whites, all Asians, all [insert group here]) were/are evil (or good)! That just feeds the spiral of hate! And denies us the possibility to learn from the mistakes of our ancestors and do better!

3. Jews and Germans: OK. I'll explain again. *scratches head* Hope I can. The short version: These terms are not mutually exclusive, there are Jewish Germans and German Jews (that's not necessarily the same!). Longer version: The Nazis' original goal was to "purify" the Germanic "race" - a lot of national Germans aren't/weren't Germanic, but Slavs (e.g. the Prussian people; maybe you've heard that name before), French (Gallic, Latinos), Semites etc. - because they blamed the un-Germanic traits (in the people) for Germany losing WWI (among other); homosexuals, communists etc. were also seen as a "weakening" factor. People (in the academia, btw., so s. point 1!) had this ridiculous idea that the purer a breed, the stronger it would be. (Today we know that the opposite is in fact correct!) One of the most prominent of these groups in Germany were the German Jews and Germans of Jewish ancestry - famous examples are Einstein (he was originally from Bavaria before becoming Swiss, he then worked as a professor in Berlin), Mendelssohn (and his grandson Mendelssohn-Bartoldy), Marx, Rosa Luxemburg, Theodor Adorno and many many others. There were also those Jews (and people of Jewish ancestry) who were staunch (right-wing!) supporters of the monarchy, Prussian generals, had fought in WWI, etc. Before Hitler, Berlin was the largest (and greatest) Jewish community in Europe, second in size only to NY (and maybe not even that). All these people were Germans, for better or worse. The Nazis, though, declared everybody of Jewish ancestry (up to the 7th generation!!!) to be non-/un-German. (First these people were thrown out of the country, later - when you go and conquer the whole world "throwing people out" just doesn't work, anymore - came the "final" solution.)
I could go on about this for hours, but to cut a long story short: to just juxtapose Jews and Germans the way you did is to tacidly agree to the Nazi philosophy that a Jew could never be a German! And while I'd understand every Jew (and every other German) for not wanting to be German - that's a decision that nobody else has a right to make! It also somehow denies the existence of one of the greatest (sub-)cultures this world has ever known.
I understand (after calming down) that you were not even saying that, so this is not me criticizing your statement, but only trying to explain! (Sorry for getting all emotional.)

Also: the last movie I watched by a non-German Jew about a non-Jewish German was Schindler's List - and that was to portray that guy (the non-Jewish German) as a hero, because he is venerated as such in Israel and among a good number of Jews all over the world. Americans have come a long way from unthinkingly portraying Germans as devils. Spielberg never even thought about what the Germans would think about this movie. And would any Germans have thought to complain (which Germans just don't - hell, to deny the holocaust is even illegal in that country), they'd just be showing how terrible human beings they are.

4. Yeah, I love Japanese culture. I also love Korean culture btw, or wouldn't be here, eh? o_ô (Sporting a home-made fanart of Sung Kyun Kwan Scandal as my picture, at that!)
But: I've got that unhealthy habit of always, under any circumstances, siding with the beleaguered party. If people are giving some mainland Chinese **** for e.g. Tibet, I'll side with the Chinese. If I'm talking to Chinese and they criticize the Tibetian independence movement, I'll side with the Tibetians. Maybe it's one of those "I'll always be on the side of the egg" things? So, there you have it.
And yes, when I read people saying that Japanese are likely to complain about this drama (because they all think their emperor is god, even today - somebody actually wrote this, here!), without actually knowing what the Japanese are really saying - that just makes me sad and angry. It's like somebody's saying that all my Japanese friends are incapable of compassion and racist. Also, I'm sometimes getting the feeling here that the Japanese victims (esp. the Okinawans got it bad) are made light off, because it was "their own" government that did it. As if that would make it any better. (And no, the Japanese comfort women weren't doing it because they liked it. If they don't speak up today it's because they are actually still living in that society that oppressed them and they don't have a government, like the Korean or Chinese, to back them up! If nobody else is on their side, I will be - exactly because I'm the only one and somebody has to be!)


And now what really had me almost in tears (I actually had to take a walk before writing a reply): You said (to me):
"You're saying that it's OK for people to have committed atrocious behavior/crimes within the context of war & colonization & that JAPAN isn't BAD b/c OTHER countries (colonizers/imperial powers did so too)..."

Sorry, I'm just totally wtf'd? Like, how, why, where do you see that in my writing? I actually said the freaking opposite and quoted your words on that topic to show my agreement. So: What the bloody f***ing hell?! TT-TT
And yeah, I'm upping the amp with the highlight, because I'm so totally freaked out by what you wrote. It's really OK if you don't read or misunderstand all the tedious things I write, but please don't put words like that in my mouth!

I'll say that again, to (re)make my point: The reason I'm talking about all these other crimes and cruelties in human history is because I've had people telling me that nobody was ever as cruel as the Japanese. And that just makes light of everything everybody else has gone through! Pretty much everywhere in this world people have suffered from unspeakable atrocities - this should not be a cause to vie for attention: "My granny has suffered more than yours!" It should be a call to recognize our commonalities and unite against injustice everywhere - to make us feel that when girls in Africa are forced into sexual slavery by gang lords that is not a foreign issue - it is about us!
If we see it this way, this drama, Gaksital, has the possibility to become more than just a nice show about the past, but can hold a message about the future! The point isn't that the Japanese were cruel - we already know that - the point is: how do we act under such circumstances?
This is actually something I learned in this drama. Because I would have probably gone the way of Kang To - I'd have decided to protect my family, the nation be damned. Only, as they are showing it here, that just doesn't work.

And now we're getting into painful territory - you said:
"I UNDERSTAND that it was a common practice (sexual slavery), but keep in mind... Japan was the only country that got nuked. Why do you think that is? B/C they were so pleasant and just doing what the western imperial powers were doing? B/C U.S. really viewed them as a threat? MAYBE, maybe not. What I know is, a THOUSAND WRONGS doesn't make a RIGHT."

I understand where you're coming from, and in a way that would have been a good reason for the US to nuke Japan (or Germany, btw). But it just wasn't. The US did not giving a flying **** about what happened to Asians. (Just read up on Asian American history. It's not pretty.) On the other side of the globe the allies never cared about the Jews etc. in Europe, either. (Case in point: Jewish refugee ships were sent back to Europe. When the allies had the choice between a. bombing the tracks to Auschwitz (or other camps), b. taking out Nazi military facilities and c. killing as many civilians as possible, they actually chose option c. And yeah, I - and probably a lot of us - wouldn't be alive without what the US did, anyway, and I, like many, want to view them as heroes fighting against the oppressors. But unfortunately, I've read one too many history books. Reality just isn't that nice.)
Now, there are two theories regarding the nuke: a) the US really thought that was the only way to bomb the war (they might have taken that idea from the kamikaze fighters), the US just wanted to try out their new shiny weapon and show the USSR, their communist frenemy, what they could do (on this side of the argument it is normal to mention that Japan had already tried to surrender before Hiroshima!!!). I don't know which side is right, but the cynic in me tends towards option b. The world really is that bad.

*yeah* This is shaping up to be the world's longest post. orz

@mrdimples: Yeah, you kind of started this. But it's really interesting! (Well, to me, at least.)
I wasn't sympathetic towards the Japanese criminals/military; obviously I never said that "what happened was OK, because everybody did it". I have absolutely no idea where Serendipity gets that from what I wrote. I'm really quite shocked. (Actually, I specifically wrote that when push comes to shove I'd always be on the side of the comfort women, as well.) I mean, OK, I do understand: By only fastly reading what somebody writes, latching onto a few words and just "exploding". I guess, if you have heard a lot of terrible/mocking statements by Japanese politicians, you will be predisposed to these feelings of anger. It's a natural reaction I've had pretty often myself, especially when I go to Japan. Luckily (for me), atm I'm not exposed that much to Japanese conservatives' BS, because I'm constantly buried in books (atm about video games and the sociology of space, so no Japanese).

Anyways, way I see it (and I said so many times in my previous post), serendipity and me don't even disagree on any issue. (*hm* Sometimes I feel that she's saying that all Japanese are evil, but I guess that's just my conjecture. I've never gotten over my teacher scolding me for liking Japan, so that's my bias/ Achilles heel, I guess.)

But this goes to show that this is a highly emotional issue for everyone (as it well should be)!

mrdimples

wrote:

»

mrdimples

wrote:

»

serendipity8989 said:<br />

<br />

stoffkimba said:First of all: thank you for writing so much on the topic!!!

orz It's really interesting to be able to discuss this topic, especially with people who know what's going down and haven't just been aware of it since like the last GST preview.

<br />

<br />

@ Wikipedia or internet resources in general:<br />

What was I supposed to do? Scan a book or something?

(Or even better: just write something and give no sources?) My posts are overly long even with me linking left and right. *sigh* (I need ages to open my mouth, but when I do, it's hard to get me to shut up.

)<br />

Apart from that: YES! Of course. But, and I am going to go bold just to make that point: We also have to be careful when reading books and newspaper articles. Just because it's printed and maybe a journalist or professor wrote the text does NOT mean it isn't biased!!! Everything has to be read/watched with a healthy does of scepticism. People tend to forget that and that's dangerous. (Sometimes it's not even the writers fault. I've read quite a bit on the Japanese emperor Hirohito / Showa. Before his death researchers tended to say that he was just a puppet in the hands of the military. After his death new material became available, people spoke up - and suddenly you get researchers going on about what an ugly faced despot the man was. Suposedly. It's kind of amusing, really, how "benign and handsome Showa" turned into "bug-eyed, stooped and totally vile and ugly Hirohito" within the space of just a few years. We'll probably never know the whole truth, but reading all these disagreeing accounts and opinions gives us at least an inkling of what it might be.)<br />

<br />

I think, though, we are in agreement concerning that point, anyway, eh?

;<br />

<br />

What's fun(ny) with Wikipedia ist that you can read the logfiles and see<br />

the editing wars going on about these topics! It's extremely <br />

informative. The Nanjing massacre "thread" is especially revealing!<br />

<br />

As you are saying later on in your post: The Koreans are saying one thing, the Japanese another... (That's also what I meant about there being no status quo in Asia on these matters!) Which brings us to the Japanese reaction:<br />

<br />

@ Japanese on the issue: Well, yes. On all accounts! There is no one official line - it's like a flag in the wind. :< Also, Japan is a really terribly sexist nation, still. I remember a high gov't official's (totally forgotten who, the case I'm talking about is 2003, but there are countless others) to a gang rape of a young woman was to praise the rapists for their manliness! And no, he didn't get fired or even "rotated" to a new position.

So, how are we to expect sympathy for the comfort women from these men?! What's even more harrowing is that this particular brand of paternalistic, nationalist, sexist [the list could be expanded endlessly] ***holes are usually the loudest ones, and the ones that will make "normal" people afraid to speak up. (Well, at least on the environmentalist branch of leftism things are happening right now in Japan, so ... let's wait and see.)<br />

On that account we might also worry about the recent trend to white-wash history books in Japan. On the other hand, you might read something like "Lies my Teacher Told Me", and consider this an example for something that could be done in any nation at any time. Nothing anyone ever says is the whole truth, that goes especially for history books and doubly so for school history books, which are often full of outright lies. Anywhere, anytime.<br />

<br />

The Wiki list I posted, though, was in answer to the general claim that the Japanese have never appologized. Now, you can say that they never appologized adequately, or properly officially (though, really, the emperor himself acknowledging this is as official as you can get, eh? o_ô ). No Japanese prime minister has kneeled crying on the grounds of Nanjing (this is a reference to Germany, of course).<br />

<br />

@ What the comfort women want: Of course it's not money! But thanks for pointing that out, because that is usually overlooked in such cases. If you are raped (whether you're a girl or boy) your life gets utterly destroyed. There's just no going back to good-ol' happy times. The only chance you got is to completely forget everything you ever were and everything that ever happened, to erase yourself and start anew. No money in the world can help you with that.<br />

The call for recognition of such a crime is understandable (the indifference of society is a factor in the victims ongoing trauma almost as strong as the original act of violence!). Unfortunately, it is quite usual that it goes unheeded. Whether it's the rape of an individual or of a whole group of people. It's always the same procedure, the same arguments, almost the same results. (For a prominent case that caught a larger audiences attention around the world s. the Polanski case.)<br />

<br />

@ The military's involvement as point of uniqueness: *erm* No. Well, I agree to the degree that I wrote this myself - the particular combination: military/gov't kidnapping women, deport them somewhere else and abuse them as sex slaves - that might be unique on that scale, although I'd say it is absolutely not and I just do not know enough about the history of violence to give examples! Even as I am writing these points down I realise that something like this has happened, and is happening (Africa, war lords, it's common practice!) in other places. And yes, the mass rape of Amerindian women, of e.g. Polish villages' female population, the deportment of the women of conquered tribes by the Romans, and many many many more, were actions orchastrated by the government and military.<br />

<br />

But maybe that is not even the issue. You can't well tell a rape victim: "Well, that's happend to other women, too. No biggy, eh?"<br />

So on the side of the comfort women (whose position, btw., I am on, as a woman - even against their respective goverments who sometimes seem to be using the issue to their own gain, which is just pukalistic *blech*) it doesn't lessen the crime, if something similar happend elsewhere. It might help with the healing, though. To know you are not alone is a really powerful help to a victim of violence!<br />

<br />

Also, my point (I guess) is that we (who are not victims of the Japanese - and I appologize to any 90 year olds who might be reading this for not taking them into account) need to consider the broader context and need to see what else is going on in the world, because if we don't we'll just be hating on the Japanese or maybe the Japanese in that particular time without understanding that<br />

a) things like this have always happened around the world and will happen again -<br />

it is our duty to learn from them (the right lessons - vigilance!) and<br />

c) to not turn away when it falls upon us to do something!<br />

<br />

Which - to go back on topic - is what this drama, I believe, is all about. If you are faced with such a situation, it is normal, understandable, human, to not do anything. To ignore what's going on, to protect your own, your loved ones. But, ultimately, what you should do, is stand up and fight the injustice, even should it cost your life. *nods head* (And I just bold faced that because I could. *har*

)<br />

<br />

(Actually, I remember when I was a kid (OK, teenager) and told my Chinese<br />

teacher I'd start to learn Japanese (because I love Japanese culture so<br />

much), I was severely scolded by her. She said that no people in the <br />

whole world have ever been as cruel as the Japanese. So probably that is<br />

why I'm always going on about how the Japanese weren't the only cruel <br />

bast*** in human history. To say so is just hurtful to everybody else!)<br />

<br />

edit:

@serendipity8989

: *ha* you just posted while I was writing this. Agreed on pretty much all counts, especially "HOWEVER, those acts were all wrong. <br />

And people shouldn't try to "justify" these acts, by saying "OH it was a<br />

normalized back then, everyone did it..." B/C regardless of whether all<br />

colonizers or imperial powers did commit atrocities, it doesn't take <br />

away from the fact that it was wrong. It is wrong. And if a <br />

country wants to make a drama or film about their own nation's history, <br />

then that's fine with me. "<br />

That's what I was trying to say with the last few paragraphs, but in that horribly longwinded bookish way of mine. (Again: this is not my native language, I really can't help the way I write.)

; So, I love the way you put it!<br />

Something I want to say, though, which is really really important to me: The Japanese are NOT complaining, for Christ's sake! All the Japanese I've shown this drama to are loving it. I've even got friends in the police force (higher ups, they are quite conservative, you migh imagine!) think this show is great! So please please please stop being angry at those fantasy Japanese that everybody seems to be making up! Probably Kobayashi Yoshinori or some other right wingish ***hole might react to this in a hateful fashion by calling them liers or some such (I can so imagine the comic strip he's going to make *uke*), but he doesn't speak for the Japanese per se and is a highly controversial figure in his home nation.<br />

<br />

Koreans complaining about the show are probably the ones I meant when I said that people don't mention the history to be able to live "comfortably". They might have some business interest in Japan or something. :<<br />

(What you said about "the" Germans and "the" Jews, btw. seems a bit skewed, as in: I agree with what you said, but I don't agree with the worldview that seems to be behind that statement. Maybe I'm just a bit sensitive on that count atm, because we just burried a professor here, who'd spend his youth in a camp - and it wasn't the Boy Scouts'.

He was 100% German. Of Jewish ancestry. You get what I'm trying to say? *sigh* Luckily, that's not the topic of this thread.) Now, I really need to get away from the internet...

sorry!<br />

<br />

*hm* Sorry

@mrdimples

for just completely ignoring your nice answer atm. I got all carried aways here, again.

; (Guess, I'm a passionate person like KT *moarrr*) Also, today is my dad's birthday and my family is looking at me all funny for sitting at my mom's computer. *ahem* So, I guess I'll be getting some Jabjae, potato salad and cheese cake right now and rejoin the discussion tomorrow.

; Sorry. orz <br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

1. Wikipedia is generally a good source for basic information. However, it can never be taken as 100 percent fact, because anyone has the ability to edit wiki and so forth. Also, what you said about biased articles and research papers/journals/ and so forth is true, too. Therefore, you should be all the more careful when citing wikipedia, because IF PROFESSIONAL ARTICLES can be BIASED, then wikipedia sure as hell isn't one to cite. You know? Also, you have to take into consideration: WHO wrote the article, where they are from, what political/economic affiliations they have, and so forth. However, generally, when you're at University-level, there are some sources that CAN BE taken in as FACT. <br />

Good historians don't judge articles based on bias, but on accuracy in terms of the evidence they supplied. Most of my research (although I haven't done extensive research), tells me (keep in mind I'm paraphrasing): the Japanese do not feel regret, remorse, or apologetic to their war crimes. In fact, the prime minister you were speaking of, was supposedly scoffing at the fact that there even needed to be an apology issued to comfort women.

2. Japanese/Korean criticism: I only thought Japanese were criticizing this drama because of some of the posts that were posted on this thread, saying that some Japanese netizens were upset with their portrayal. I thought you had said that the "Demonization of SJ won't make Japanese happy" I don't think the Koreans are making this drama to appease the Japanese audience, so it doesn't matter if the Japanese netizens aren't "happy" with SJ's portrayal, or the portrayal of any Japanese in this drama. If they don't like it, they should not watch it

If they do like it, yay for them. <br />

Also, I didn't know if Koreans were criticizing this drama, you mentioned that they were?? If they were, then that's strange, because I don't think Koreans would generally oppose this. This drama isn't that political anyway. It's pretty watered down, in my POV. If you compare films about the Holocaust and other genocides/colonization eras, this drama is like... cotton candy, in comparison. <br />

3. Germans/Jews: I obviously can't speak on their behalf, but why is what I said a bit skewed? I understand there's always going to be exceptions within each case, but I think what I said, in a general sense, is okay, because after all, I felt like I was just citing historical facts, and the patterns in which Hollywood films (at least) about the holocaust gets portrayed and viewed. There's nothing wrong about me being sympathetic  to the Jews. On the same note, there's nothing wrong with you being sympathetic to the Germans.... But keep in mind, I was being sympathetic in some sense to the Jews (because I believe they were wronged. Also, I'm referring to what happened specifically in the Holocaust). I'm not referring to Jews now-a-days. Therefore, I'm not generalizing and saying "ALL Germans are bad, they deserve to be portrayed negatively" Or anything crazy like that. I'm sure Germans NOW A DAYS, LIKE THE JAPANESE, have both good and bad people, just like Koreans, Jews, French, Chinese, etc. There's always gonna be good

4. I can tell you really like J culture.... and that's fine, but that doesn't mean you should be some crusader for J rights and advocate for Japanese people to be portrayed in a "better light" IN A KOREAN DRAMA about KOREAN COLONIZATION from the Japanese. <br />

You're saying that it's OK for people to have committed atrocious behavior/crimes within the context of war

I'M SAYING: What's WRONG IS WRONG. Japan doing those things b/c other western imperial powers were doing so in their colonized countries, doesn't EXCUSE the JAPANESE for what THEY DID. I UNDERSTAND that it was a common practice (sexual slavery), but keep in mind... Japan was the only country that got nuked. Why do you think that is? B/C they were so pleasant and just doing what the western imperial powers were doing? B/C U.S. really viewed them as a threat? MAYBE, maybe not. What I know is, a THOUSAND WRONGS doesn't make a RIGHT.<br />

Therefore, Koreans should have to right to make films or dramas about whatever they want, and portray Japanese however they want, in the context that makes sense, b/c it's their right. But I think it's not right to EXCUSE injustices JUST BECAUSE "everyone was doing it"<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />

Oh dear, did I somehow stir all these up?First,  I admit I don't read long posts thoroughly.

@stiffkomba

was the first person to respond to my post on comfort women. When I read it, it didn't seem that she was 'sympathetic' towards the Japanese. After her post, many have also joined in the discussion, I didn't read as I was busy rushing out work. So, before I comment further I really should just read all the posts on this subject cuz ep 20 just makes me so sick the way all these girls were forced into sex slavery. I have watched documentaries and movies that touch on this issue.<br />

Although this drama is fictional, the way they bring the portrayal to a personal level like the grandmother sending off her granddaughter,both thinking that they have to bear the separation for a brighter future, it just guts me. And to think that thousands of women in Korea, and the east Asian countries who were victims of this debased act, just makes me so sad. <br />

I like what you wrote here:"I don't think the Koreans are making this drama to appease the Japanese audience, so it doesn't matter if the Japanese netizens aren't "happy" with SJ's portrayal, or the portrayal of any Japanese in this drama. If they don't like it, they should not watch it

If they do like it, yay for them. <br />

Also, I didn't know if Koreans were criticizing this drama, you mentioned that they were?? If they were, then that's strange, because I don't think Koreans would generally oppose this. This drama isn't that political anyway. It's pretty watered down, in my POV. If you compare films about the Holocaust and other genocides/colonization eras, this drama is like... cotton candy, in comparison. <br />

<br />

There was a uproar among Korean netizens regarding that episode where Gaksital crash the Japanese party and slash the banner(the ep where Damsari was caught in his disguise). They felt that the banner slashing part was too much as it will hurt the sensitivity of the Japanese. I was appalled at their reaction. As you said, already this drama is very watered down since it is neither a historical drama or a non-fictional one. I can understand if the Japanese dont like it but that the Koreans are beating themselves on this, major eyeroll. SInce the show started, there has been people who feel that this show shouldn't be made. I have met people over at DB and Softy's who criticise this show so much that you can literally see the hatred in their posts. At Softy, this particular person even attacked me personally because I said the same thing you did - that the Koreans have the right to make whatever movies or dramas they want and that we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand regarding the past no matter how ugly the truths are. This person felt that the show is damaging Japan-Korea relations and causing backlash on Hallyu stars, quoting the Kim Tae Hee incident. On DB, there is another person who writes very long post which makes my head swim. After going through all the convoluted arguments, I realised this person has something against Korea or is very pro Japanese. I was seriously wondering if that person is Japanese but I dont think so. I kind of concluded he/she just wants attention and always writes crazy, controversial pieces to see how many will reply to the post. I stopped replying coz it is simply not worth the time and you are just 'feeding' what the person wants. We all like it to some extent when people reply to our posts but to write those stuff, his/her mind must be warped. 

[Guest stoffkimba]

@RoxyYEH: I agree: to have everybody just die at the end without any hope - after showing all this - would be just too depressing! This show is so incredibly dark, though, that I'm getting more and more fearful. We are still not in the worst years (the war), so if they ended that show before then, how could it be a happy ending? Even if they survived ... *shakes head in denial*
Maybe they'll have KT die, but MD carry his child? To give us some kind of hope? (Not that I want that, but ... *cries*)

@serendipity8989 said:

2. The scenes in which the women were being taken in as comfort women were very watered down. =( I wanted to see more realism. It made Koreans seem all too "ignorant" in what was going on in their own country, ruled by the Japanese. Would they really have thought that they were recruiting NURSES & paying them so much for doing such work? Even MD was like "wth that doesn't make sense.." I'm sure the Korean women knew what the hell was happening. & in reality, these women knew what were happening, because they were kidnapped. Some had to go voluntarily, or else they would have starved to death/beaten/raped - so I don't know if I'd call that "volunteering" b/c it's more like coercion. Nevertheless, I was a bit disappointed in those scenes.

[KHOGirl]

@sunshine4ever I'm sorry but can I ask why should I take down the picture ?I actually already deleted them but I want to know the reason so next time I wont make thesame mistake =)

[Guest sunshine4ever]

KHOGirl said: @sunshine4ever I'm sorry but can I ask why should I take down the picture ?I actually already deleted them but I want to know the reason so next time I wont make thesame mistake =)

[Guest JenA313]

@sunshine4ever WOW! the rating is really something to celebrate! Daebak! Bingo! My fear that Korean might find the topic unbearable prove to be naught  >- Just a hair more til it breaks 20% on all fronts (Nielsen and TMnS)!!!
I dunno how that happens but Joo Won really is KBS' Crown Prince. All three of his dramas have been in KBS and they're all certified hits! Not to mention his participation in 1N2D. That said, I hope he will take on challenging projects on another station next and please please please, have him be in Running Man just once. Wanna see the aegyo power face to face against Sparta Kook kekeke

[mrdimples]

@stoffkimba@serendipity8989
I will read all your posts more thoroughly on this subject because both of you make such good arguments and it's an issue which horrified me long ago but this show has opened new wounds as well for eg like how these comfort women were 'recruited'. There probably weren't just one way but many ways. As I said I shouldn't comment any more till I read the stuff, I think I can still safely say that although you 2 differ on a few areas, I think both of you have your hearts in the right places. That's the vibe I got. 
This show really does get into your head, doesn't it. Just today, I found myself staring blankly at the check-out cashier lady cuz I was thinking of the fate of Lee Kangto and all those people who lived in those unfortunate times. The lady had to say a few times " Miss, please sign."

[Guest stoffkimba]

mrdimples said: @stoffkimba@serendipity8989
I will read all your posts more thoroughly on this subject because both of you make such good arguments and it's an issue which horrified me long ago but this show has opened new wounds as well for eg like how these comfort women were 'recruited'. There probably weren't just one way but many ways. As I said I shouldn't comment any more till I read the stuff, I think I can still safely say that although you 2 differ on a few areas, I think both of you have your hearts in the right places. That's the vibe I got. 
This show really does get into your head, doesn't it. Just today, I found myself staring blankly at the check-out cashier lady cuz I was thinking of the fate of Lee Kangto and all those people who lived in those unfortunate times. The lady had to say a few times " Miss, please sign."

[leeana21]

mrdimples said: @mojobobo
Aawwwww......is there any way to redeem my reputation? It's not my fault.....Joowon just brings out the worst in me. 
Thanks for those pics. Funny thing is this guy actually reveals very little compared to quite a number of male actors out there. But I find him way sexier than all of them. 
@coolreborn
In case you don't know, Joowon drinks coffee in tall tumblers. So, there you have it- 2 -in -1

[Guest maichurchill]

Does anyone know the response of Korean netizens when Gaksital mentions about Comfort Women???? Good or Bad.I am kinda worry for next week rating... Two new dramas are coming...

[leeana21]

raewonkim said: OH MY GOD, that scene when Shujin embraced Mok DAn makes me cry. When Lee kang to clasp the hand of Mok Dan makes me cry even more. These are sacrifices which they have to endure until the day Joseon will be freed from enemy. 
Until now that "comfort women" is still an issue. Japan in those days are indeed very cruel.