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Joo Won 주원 [Upcoming Movie "Carter" 2021]


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11 hours ago, Calli said:

wasn't aware he was away for a whole 1 1/2 years from the Korean drama scene. That must have been the time he did that Chinese drama that hasn't been released yet? Was that his own choice or was that something his agency wanted for him? 

But even knowing that he was away for that period of time, I would still expect him to have a bigger fanbase than he does... because he deserves that so much. Though like you guys mentioned, his acting is always lauded by audience and critics alike and that is something truly meaningful and I think with his talent and hardworking spirit he'll be an actor who'll be around (and loved) for a long, long, long time. 

 

Can't say precisely whose decision was it. But JW's agency was somewhat affiliated with China at that time. If I'm not wrong his agency become from SIM Entertainment to Huayi Brother when there was a major change in shareholding or something because Huayi Brother is is a China company. His KDrama My Sassy Girl also had Chinese investors but they later pulled out from this project because of China ban on Korean project.

So can't tell who was the decision maker but I just think there's enough influence. Sometimes I think both give in to each other time to time. Because JW doing a 6 months long Musical at the time of covid isn't really an ideal situation for his agency but he still gets to do that. I think they knows what Joo Won wants to do and values it and that's what he's sticking with it also because they're like a family to him, him being there since the beginning for 11 years now.

 

Why I'm saying JW doing Musical isn't ideal situation is because Musical/stage plays don't make as much as money than movie/photoshoots, CFS does. It also isn't highly coveted by media. Though these days it gets somewhat media exposure. I another actor whose work I usually try to follow- Lee Sang Yoon. He recently did one of his first major stage play. He was asked if he'd like to continue. He said he'd like to do at least one play in a year. And the interviewer mentioned "your agency would not be very happy about it, would they!" LSY laughed and said "I will work hard, do what agency gives me and do stage play as well."  So what the idea I get from it is that frequent musical/stage plays isn't favourable to agencies unless the agency is dedicated in that genre.

 

And like @kittyna was saying JW is the only heartthrob in his agency, they had some veteran actor and actress and some talented young actress but not really a heartthrob like Joo Won. So in a way they depend on him a lot.

 

And I really can't pin point a reason for him facing small fanbase but yeah let's hope he will be around and be loved for a long long time because that's what he wants. He first wants to be recognized as a an actor who'll make you depend on him rather than celebrity. 

 

9 hours ago, kittyna said:

Because I started paying attention to news about JW in 2016, I do have some memory of how it all went down, but I was really new to things (and wasn't aware of this forum yet either), so I don't know how clear a picture I actually have. So, @flutterby06, please correct me if I get any of this wrong

 

You're probably right because I actually didn't notice much on his enlistment process except that there was news every now and then about him going to be enlisted. And even if it's delayed I'm so damn glad that JW went for active military service. Because Korea seems to take it bad when a celebrity take police unit. And they colorful life he spend in army- being army instructor in white skull- being featured in army magazine- being MC and performer in two army fest (correct me if I'm wrong I think he's the only celebrity so far who had been MC in 2 army fest). So far it's one of the best decision he has taken considering how enlistment is a sensetive issue to Korea.

 

Hey... Joo Won showed up on people's IG today. Looking very handsome.

 

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12 hours ago, Calli said:

I wasn't aware he was away for a whole 1 1/2 years from the Korean drama scene. That must have been the time he did that Chinese drama that hasn't been released yet? Was that his own choice or was that something his agency wanted for him? 

Not just drama, he was also part of movie "Sweet Sixteen"(apparently this movie is based on popular novel in china), he was villain that movie and did a great job than he did for "Gu Ma Jun" character,which shows that he improved a lot as an antagonist. So, yeah, he was unlucky when it came to drama, by the time his drama was done, tensions between China and South Korea were high and Chinese authorities sort of banned Korean dramas and movies and also Chinese drama in which Korean actor/actress were part of, so, we can say that between 2016 to 2017 he sort of lost one year and even one year is valuable for a actor like joo won who is in competitive ecosystem. If his agency did made him do a Chinese drama, he could have done a Korean drama, as his popularity soared due to Yong Pal success, it would have been good boost to his career and popularity

2 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

Why I'm saying JW doing Musical isn't ideal situation is because Musical/stage plays don't make as much as money than movie/photoshoots, CFS does. It also isn't highly coveted by media. Though these days it gets somewhat media exposure. I like another actor- Lee Sang Yoon. He recently did one of his first major stage play. He was asked if he'd like to continue. He said he'd like to do at least one play in a year. And the interviewer mentioned "your agency would not be very happy about it, would they!" LSY laughed and said "I will work hard, do what agency gives me and do stage play as well."  So what the idea I get from it is that frequent musical/stage plays isn't favourable to agencies unless the agency is dedicated in that genre.

You are right, when it comes to money and fame, musical is not ideal for any artist, but, I think lot of artist do it out of passion, just like Joo won, so, they are in it improve their acting skills and love for musical. Also, lot of musical artist are now successful actors, like, Kang Ha-neul who was not only musical actor but also junior to Joo won, so, I think actors like to perform musical to improve their acting skills as well, like, it is common knowledge that Musical artist fair well in dramas and movies when compared to K-pop artist(no offense to them)

2 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

You're probably right because I actually didn't notice much on his enlistment process except that there was news every now and then about him going to be enlisted. And even if it's delayed I'm so damn glad that JW went for active military service. Because Korea seems to take it bad when a celebrity take police unit. And they colorful life he spend in army- being army instructor in white skull- being featured in army magazine- being MC and performer in two army fest (correct me if I'm wrong I think he's the only celebrity so far who had been MC in 2 army fest). So far it's one of the best decision he has taken considering how enlistment is a sensetive issue to Korea.

Also, he made lot good friends. Maybe that's why he choose army over police service.

 

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@kittyna, a million thank yous for your thorough post on what you remember from back in 2016/17. You've no idea how much I appreciate you breaking it down for me (and others) in such detail. 

I had actually read about Joo Won cancelling his enlistment as part of a police promotional unit back in September 2016 - which would have meant him enlisting in July 2016 - and instead wanting to serve as an active duty soldier and awaiting his enlistment date at the time. The article didn't mention any reason for why he changed his mind/preference of course (here's the link to the article)

Him wanting to enlist as an active duty soldier instead of in that police promotional unit probably had many reasons but, after having read your post @kittyna, it seems likely that the filming of Sassy Girl being delayed is one of them. 

I remember reading about the THAAD radar system and the crisis that ensued between Korea and China and how it affected the entertainment industry as well - I was brand new to K-world at the time and I remember being a little surprised how much of an effect politics or a diplomatic crisis between two countries could have on entertainment content. 

 

It's honestly really sad that Joo Won couldn't benefit more off of the popularity and success of Yong Pal and a whole 1 1/2 years passed before his next drama... 

 

By the way, @kireeti2, as far as I know Joo Won filmed "Sweet Sixteen" (or "Passion Heaven" as it was originally called) back in 2014, right before Naeil's Cantabile. I remember that well because both his preparation for the movie (learning Chinese) and his preparation for Naeil's Cantabile (learning the piano, the violin, and conducting) were happening simultaneously, as depicted in "Joo Won's Life Log". For some reason I'm not aware of, though the movie was filmed in 2014, it only got released in 2016. Maybe @flutterby06or @kittynamight know why? 

 

Since you guys mentioned his agency in your posts, I've been wondering, is Studio Santa Claus Entertainment = Huayi Brothers = SIM Entertainment? 

I know Joo Won has been with the same company since the beginning but I'm a bit confused about the changes that happened in between to the company itself. 

 

After reading your insights into actors doing plays/musicals @flutterby06, I'm even more glad Joo Won got the green light to do GHOST again in 2020/21. Reading and watching some of his interviews from the first time he performed in it in 2013 and then again in 2020/21, it obviously is a project that is very very close to his heart and that brought him a lot of joy. And growth. Or rather a platform where he could clearly showcase and experience his own growth over the last 7 years, so I'm really really happy he got the chance to participate again in it with so many of the original cast members. 

 

By the way, I am rewatching Alice at the moment (I initially wanted to start Yong Pal but I kinda got caught up in Alice again and wanting to better understand its ending) and I stumbled on this hellokpop article reviewing the drama and I just loved all the praise the reviewer had for Joo Won. You might have already read it but let me quote it anyway: "Making his small screen return after being discharged from the military service, one thing remains truer than ever - Joo Won's acting never disappoints." (more praise follows) 

 

It makes me so happy reading such well-deserved praise :issohappy:

Edited by Calli
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33 minutes ago, Calli said:

By the way, @kireeti2, as far as I know Joo Won filmed "Sweet Sixteen" (or "Passion Heaven" as it was originally called) back in 2014, right before Naeil's Contabile. I remember that well because both his preparation for the movie (learning Chinese) and his oreperation for Naeil's Contabile (learning the piano, the violin, and conducting) were happening simultaneously, as depicted in "Joo Won's Life Log". For some reason I'm not aware of, though the movie was filmed in 2014, it only got released in 2016. Maybe @flutterby06or @kittynamight know why? 

Oh, I didn't know that. I think he mentioned this in his Life Vlog when he visited to China for some project, maybe he was referring to this movie. But, I am wondering why it took 2 years to release, maybe joo won is sort of unlucky when comes to movies, since his movies either get delayed or has mediocre plots. Another reason for his small fan base is his unsuccessful movies, most them(except Fatal intuition) failed to sell 1 million tickets, which is considered as a benchmark for good Korean movie

37 minutes ago, Calli said:

By the way, I am rewatching Alice at the moment (I initially wanted to start Yong Pal but I kinda got caught up in Alice again and wanting to better understand its ending) and I stumbled on this hellokpop article reviewing the drama and I just loved all the praise the reviewer had for Joo Won. You might have already read it but let me quote it anyway: "Making his small screen return after being discharged from the military service, one thing remains truer than ever - Joo Won's acting never disappoints." (more praise follows) 

Thanks for sharing the article, it's like his drama has almost become invisible despite having decent story line and good acting by cast members. I think we can all agree that everyone involved in the drama did an excellent job, only draw back was the plot, written sort of lost the plot after episode 9, and dropping ratings was evidence to it. Like, initial episodes were good, and plot line was excellent up to episode 6, but after that the writers underutilized the rest of the cast members and solely dependent on main leads to carry the forward the plot. So, for me a good drama is optimum utilization of all the cast members rather than banking on popular leads. So, drama did not reach its potential despite excellent and moving performance of main leads.

 

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6 hours ago, flutterby06 said:

So can't tell who was the decision maker but I just think there's enough influence. Sometimes I think both give in to each other time to time. Because JW doing a 6 months long Musical at the time of covid isn't really an ideal situation for his agency but he still gets to do that. I think they knows what Joo Won wants to do and values it and that's what he's sticking with it also because they're like a family to him, him being there since the beginning for 11 years now.

 

Why I'm saying JW doing Musical isn't ideal situation is because Musical/stage plays don't make as much as money than movie/photoshoots, CFS does. It also isn't highly coveted by media.

 

1 hour ago, Calli said:

After reading your insights into actors doing plays/musicals @flutterby06, I'm even more glad Joo Won got the green light to do GHOST again in 2020/21. Reading and watching some of his interviews from the first time he performed in it in 2013 and then again in 2020/21, it obviously is a project that is very very close to his heart and that brought him a lot of joy. And growth. Or rather a platform where he could clearly showcase and experience his own growth over the last 7 years, so I'm really really happy he got the chance to participate again in it with so many of the original cast members. 

 

I think that, from a purely financial perspective, doing a musical or stage production, especially now during COVID, would be a poor choice. Previously, during Ghost's 2013/2014 run, a lot of fans travelled to Korea to see JW perform, which would have made it more profitable in the long run. Like, I don't know how much JW or his agency gets from appearance fees when he's in a musical, but there would probably be more if there are better ticket sales. But this time around relying on a purely domestic audience that's also smaller due to physical distancing measures...yeah, this could very well turn out to be a loss. 

 

However, I do see it as a win for JW himself because, as you guys pointed out, he's doing something he loves and that's really what matters here.

 

4 hours ago, kireeti2 said:

You are right, when it comes to money and fame, musical is not ideal for any artist, but, I think lot of artist do it out of passion, just like Joo won, so, they are in it improve their acting skills and love for musical. Also, lot of musical artist are now successful actors, like, Kang Ha-neul who was not only musical actor but also junior to Joo won, so, I think actors like to perform musical to improve their acting skills as well, like, it is common knowledge that Musical artist fair well in dramas and movies when compared to K-pop artist(no offense to them)

 

And this is the flip side ;) Stage and musical theatre actors tend to completely nail their roles when they switch over to film or television, and a lot of great dramas (e.g. Prison Playbook and Hospital Playlist are a notable pair) actually do turn to theatre for their casting.

 

That's even how JW was "discovered", so to speak: a higher-up from SIM Entertainment saw him as the lead in Spring Awakening and approached him with a deal. :) 

 

1 hour ago, Calli said:

By the way, @kireeti2, as far as I know Joo Won filmed "Sweet Sixteen" (or "Passion Heaven" as it was originally called) back in 2014, right before Naeil's Cantabile. I remember that well because both his preparation for the movie (learning Chinese) and his preparation for Naeil's Cantabile (learning the piano, the violin, and conducting) were happening simultaneously, as depicted in "Joo Won's Life Log". For some reason I'm not aware of, though the movie was filmed in 2014, it only got released in 2016. Maybe @flutterby06or @kittynamight know why? 

 

Yes, it was filmed in 2014/2015, which is why he could also mention it in interviews from that time. 

 

And while I can't comment on Sweet Sixteen in particular, but I do know that a lot goes into making Chinese films after shooting wraps, which might account for some delays. For example, all the actors' voices are subsequently dubbed over by professional voice actors (which means, for those who watch Chinese dramas, that yes, that's not the actor's real voice you're hearing - like, ever). Film and TV productions in China do this to smooth out what would otherwise be a wide range of regional accents, but it does add a whole other step in the editing stage that most Western or Korean productions don't need to worry about.

 

I haven't watched Sweet Sixteen myself, but I've heard that it wound up doing JW dirty in the long run. He was playing an antagonist and he did go into the role knowing that, but his part was really cut down in post-production so that many of the scenes that would have added nuance to his character were missing in the final version and he just turned into a straight-up bad guy.

 

@kireeti2 - Yours is the first compliment about his role there that I've heard thus far, actually. And considering the stuff his character does...I dunno if I actually want him to be good at playing that sort of role. Like, I do in a purely acting sense, but still....

 

1 hour ago, Calli said:

Since you guys mentioned his agency in your posts, I've been wondering, is Studio Santa Claus Entertainment = Huayi Brothers = SIM Entertainment? 

I know Joo Won has been with the same company since the beginning but I'm a bit confused about the changes that happened in between to the company itself. 

 

Yep - Same company, three different names by this point. It probably has to do with changes to the senior administration (shareholders, acquisitions, etc.), but I don't know if it really has any effect on the artists' day-to-day lives or careers.

 

1 hour ago, Calli said:

By the way, I am rewatching Alice at the moment (I initially wanted to start Yong Pal but I kinda got caught up in Alice again and wanting to better understand its ending) and I stumbled on this hellokpop article reviewing the drama and I just loved all the praise the reviewer had for Joo Won. You might have already read it but let me quote it anyway: "Making his small screen return after being discharged from the military service, one thing remains truer than ever - Joo Won's acting never disappoints." (more praise follows) 

 

33 minutes ago, kireeti2 said:

Like, initial episodes were good, and plot line was excellent up to episode 6, but after that the writers underutilized the rest of the cast members and solely dependent on main leads to carry the forward the plot. So, for me a good drama is optimum utilization of all the cast members rather than banking on popular leads. So, drama did not reach its potential despite excellent and moving performance of main leads.

 

I second @kireeti2's assessment re: the supporting cast - because they really were amazing at their respective parts, and I would have liked to see more from them - but I'm actually one of the few people you'll come across, @Calli, who actually liked the ending, including the post-reset stuff :P Like, the whole bit about the Teacher and what he represents...I was confused at first (I thought the twist was just for the sake of shock value), but when I realized that the whole point was for Jin Gyeom to fight his "dark" self and set events on a different path that wasn't bound by the prophecy, I was like, "Oh...I get it now!" Because, well, don't we all have to do that in our lives, albeit in less literal terms? And I loved Alice's ultimate lesson about time: that we're not doomed by the wrong things we have done in the past to be bad people in the future, because at any point in time, we can choose to do the right thing and make a new start. So I saw the reset to 2010 and everything afterward as Jin Gyeom's "new start".

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27 minutes ago, kittyna said:

I'm actually one of the few people you'll come across, @Calli, who actually liked the ending, including the post-reset stuff :P Like, the whole bit about the Teacher and what he represents...I was confused at first (I thought the twist was just for the sake of shock value), but when I realized that the whole point was for Jin Gyeom to fight his "dark" self and set events on a different path that wasn't bound by the prophecy, I was like, "Oh...I get it now!" Because, well, don't we all have to do that in our lives, albeit in less literal terms? And I loved Alice's ultimate lesson about time: that we're not doomed by the wrong things we have done in the past to be bad people in the future, because at any point in time, we can choose to do the right thing and make a new start. So I saw the reset to 2010 and everything afterward as Jin Gyeom's "new start".

 

Oh, I didn't mean that I didn't like the ending of Alice. I literally meant that I'm rewatching in the hope of understanding it better^^ There were a lot of ends that I felt weren't as neatly tied together by the finale as I had hoped while watching the drama for the first time - and as the first episodes had promised. I was left with quite a few questions that I hoped a rewatch might somehow answer, at least in part. Personally I'm a big fan of what Joo Won called "human science fiction". Even though I'm a 90s kid, I love Star Trek TNG and Star Wars and Doctor Who (at least some seasons) so besides the fact that I would have watched Alice purely for the sake of JW, it actually already was on my Netflix to-watch list before I crossed paths with JW, purely because of the storyline. 

What I personally loved the most when it comes to main messages within Alice was the message that what really matters is the present, the here and now and the people we love and who love us in the here and now. So instead of what-if-ing and wishing we could go back to the past to redo certain things, it would be much wiser to live in the present and make the best possible choices now, instead of dwelling on regrets and living in the past... 

But there are still many aspects of the storyline that remained unclear to me, hence my rewatch. Plus, I can appreciate Joo Won's acting and all the subtle nuances of how he brought PJG to life all over again :D

I will definitely keep your interpretation about the Teacher in mind @kittynawhile rewatching. I think it helped me already a little bit to shed some light on some of my unanswered questions, so thank you~ 

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18 hours ago, kittyna said:

By the way, @Calli, I actually did write a review of sorts for Alice after watching it in "real time" in the fall, so that should give you a better take on my overall views about the drama.

Thanks so much @kittynafor pointing me to that page of the Joo Won thread and your analysis (so there wasn't a separate Alice topic within the forum then?)

I thought many of the points you made were very interesting and enlightening but sadly still can't explain or answer a lot of the questions I'm left with after my rewatch. I personally think that the dimension or parallel universe in which our PJG managed to bring about a reset/restart (which was universal in its consequences) kept existing - so in that universe in which a different teenage PJG actually finished singing the birthday song for his mom AND decided on his own to accompany her to buy some soju (maybe because our PJG was around and his goodness was affecting that already good teenage-parallel-universe PJG further?), and in which he never saw his mother murdered, he actually did go on to do all the things our PJG said he'd do in his inner monologue before he disappeared. Namely become a detective and him and his mom living their lives happily, with that universe's PJG unaware of everything and his mom retaining her memories of everything. So time travel did happen in that universe (when Yoon Taeyi went there in 1992 and decided to stay) but with our PJG bringing about a reset/restart the door of time closed and the connection between the different universes/dimensions closed as well. 

 

Now, as to what's happening in our universe - where our PJG and Yoon Taeyi are from - after said reset/restart, I'm very very fuzzy on still. Apparently everything that happened in the past as we know it did take place - hence the necklace PJG gave the professor still being in her possession. But somehow she's the only one who still has memories of what happened pre-reset. And somehow in this version of their universe, PJG's mom isn't Park Sun-young or at the very least doesn't look like her because otherwise post-reset architect PJG would at least have stopped and stared at the woman whom he encountered outside the hanok he was restoring and who looked exactly like his mother (or a younger version of his mother). But instead he didn't recognize her at all. For our PJG to still exist in our universe, it would still have to mean that Yoon Taeyi time travelled to 1992 from 2050 and decided to stay in order to give birth to him (at least that's what makes sense in my head). But somehow all of that was forgotten? And when the door of time closed in 2010 in EVERY dimension, everyone except for Yoon Taeyi got a collective memory wipe and PJG's mom didn't look like Yoon Taeyi anymore? (EDIT: or his mother actually died in 2010 but with the reset he forgot about everything that happened before and he went on to become an architect, subconsciously remembering his Yoon Taeyi's words about space saving time) And when post-reset PJG encounters Yoon Taeyi again in 2020 his memory slowly comes back? 

 

Clearly none of that makes any proper sense and I'd love to ask the Alice writing team so many questions but obviously that will never happen^^ 

Interestingly, even though I'm left with a gazillion questions again, even after watching Alice twice, I still really enjoyed this drama. Storyline wise, even if it fell short of my expectations in terms of tying all its loose ends by the finale, the questions/messages that were raised were really worthwhile pondering - the importance of living in the present instead of the past, that we write our "fate" anew daily with the choices we make, etc. The main characters were really well written imo and were brought to life so brilliantly by both Joo Won and Kim Hee Sun. 

Alice was my second Joo Won drama (after Good Doctor) and it deepened my appreciation for his acting ability even more. To say the least. I'm really glad he picked that character and that project as his comeback drama after serving in the military.

And now I'm left hoping he'll come back with another great character & drama, worthy of his effort & talent, soon :Please:

Till then, thankfully there are lots of older Joo Won dramas and movies to watch that will deepen my love/appreciation/obsession for him even more, I'm sure^^

 

 

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3 hours ago, Calli said:

Thanks so much @kittynafor pointing me to that page of the Joo Won thread and your analysis (so there wasn't a separate Alice topic within the forum then?)

 

There was - but I personally was more active here.

 

3 hours ago, Calli said:

So time travel did happen in that universe (when Yoon Taeyi went there in 1992 and decided to stay) but with our PJG bringing about a reset/restart the door of time closed and the connection between the different universes/dimensions closed as well. 

 

I actually hadn't thought of that before: i.e. the concept that time travel still existed, but was only contained in one universe without affecting any of the others around it.

 

3 hours ago, Calli said:

Now, as to what's happening in our universe - where our PJG and Yoon Taeyi are from - after said reset/restart, I'm very very fuzzy on still. Apparently everything that happened in the past as we know it did take place - hence the necklace PJG gave the professor still being in her possession. But somehow she's the only one who still has memories of what happened pre-reset. And somehow in this version of their universe, PJG's mom isn't Park Sun-young or at the very least doesn't look like her because otherwise post-reset architect PJG would at least have stopped and stared at the woman whom he encountered outside the hanok he was restoring and who looked exactly like his mother (or a younger version of his mother). But instead he didn't recognize her at all. For our PJG to still exist in our universe, it would still have to mean that Yoon Taeyi time travelled to 1992 from 2050 and decided to stay in order to give birth to him (at least that's what makes sense in my head). But somehow all of that was forgotten? And when the door of time closed in 2010 in EVERY dimension, everyone except for Yoon Taeyi got a collective memory wipe and PJG's mom didn't look like Yoon Taeyi anymore? (EDIT: or his mother actually died in 2010 but with the reset he forgot about everything that happened before and he went on to become an architect, subconsciously remembering his Yoon Taeyi's words about space saving time) And when post-reset PJG encounters Yoon Taeyi again in 2020 his memory slowly comes back? 

 

I think that the biggest question here would be which universe we've already seen - if any - the new 2020 was from. So I saw it as the continuation of the new post-reset 2010, you see it as a post-reset version of the original 2020, and I've seen some comments saying that it's a completely different parallel universe altogether that Yoon Tae Yi somehow wound up in.

 

4 hours ago, Calli said:

Interestingly, even though I'm left with a gazillion questions again, even after watching Alice twice, I still really enjoyed this drama. Storyline wise, even if it fell short of my expectations in terms of tying all its loose ends by the finale, the questions/messages that were raised were really worthwhile pondering - the importance of living in the present instead of the past, that we write our "fate" anew daily with the choices we make, etc.

 

Same here - I think that the more I watch (or rewatch) Alice, the more I end up thinking that the point isn't necessarily to try to make logical sense of the parallel universes, time travel, etc. Rather, I think it's actually about philosophy and psychology (i.e. human nature) and unpacking the sci-fi elements to see what lessons we can learn - and there are many.

 

For example, those who were active on this forum while I was writing my episode-by-episode analyses would know that I frequently compared Alice to Oedipus: not in the literal "kill his father and marry his mother" sense, but in the way that attempts to prevent a prophecy from taking place end up putting its fulfilment into motion. So, in this case, the Teacher and the time travellers' attempts to prevent the stop of time travel actually wound up bringing that end about, and it's the one who doesn't believe in the prophecy at all (Jin Gyeom) who ends up seeing a different path ahead.

 

And that led me to reflect on the Teacher himself, and his belief that just by virtue of being born, he was set up for failure and predestined to be a monster. I remember at the time that I said that that line of thinking wasn't logical, but it was very human. A lot of us end up in that "fixed mindset" where we assume we simply are who we are, but that can have major detrimental effects for ourselves and others if we apply that fixed mindset to our faults. Which is, unfortunately, far too common in this world: i.e., people excusing their toxic or unethical behaviours by saying, "This is me - I'm just being true to myself," or (to their parents or elders), "If you hadn't messed me up, I wouldn't be like this."

 

As for the concept of time travel itself, I think the biggest point of reflection for me rests in Seok Oh Won's character: or, rather, both versions of him. We know the good Seok Oh Won believes that time travel is theoretically possible - he even teaches that as a subject - but he also believes that just because people can do something doesn't mean they should. For instance, one of the most fascinating "blink and you'll miss it" character details is that the good Seok Oh Won is the only character in the entire story to hold any sort of religious belief (he's Catholic - you see him with a rosary after he's abducted), and that seems to have influenced his mentality towards time travel as a whole, as he says to Jin Gyeom that time should remain in the hands of God (or "the gods", depending on how you translate it).

 

However, that belief is conspicuously absent in his parallel version. I do get the sense that the evil Seok Oh Won might still be religious, but it's a corrupted form of religion where he assumes that time travel being possible (via the Teacher's influence/presence and the 2050 Tae Yi's breakthrough re: negative energy) means that God has naturally allowed it. He's become an arrogant, self-righteous hypocrite who's willing to go to extreme lengths to protect what he considers his (his research, his discovery/invention, etc.).

 

Long story short: having a "fixed mindset" about the wrongs you caused (deliberately or inadvertently) screws you over, so we should adopt a "growth"/repentance-based mindset instead :P 

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1 hour ago, kittyna said:

I actually hadn't thought of that before: i.e. the concept that time travel still existed, but was only contained in one universe without affecting any of the others around it.

Oh, that's not exactly what I meant to be honest. The only way I could understand the events that followed the reset/restart was that even after the reset, the door of time had been opened by his mother in the past and that through our PJG's actions it was merely closed again - his actions didn't undo the opening. That remains unchanged. Otherwise I'm having a hard time understanding how PJG keeps existing - in any universe we saw in Alice. Which was also his mother's fear, hence her preferring to keep the cycle going instead of ending it.

 

I love what you wrote about the fallacy of self-fulfilling prophecy within Alice. I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis, including your conclusion of how important it is to avoid a fixed mindset and always remain open to self-reflection and growth. 

 

What I kept wondering about while watching the final two episodes again - and this might be really stupid but please bear with me - is what exactly had happened in the previous cycles for the younger PJG to turn into the old, bitter future PJG. I mean, I know what happens is that the younger PJG sees his mother murdered and grows bitter, chooses to become the Lord of Time - convinced that he's bound by The Prophecy - and goes on to kill countless people to keep time travel going. Or something along those lines. But in those previous cycles, doesn't the younger PJG end up killing his older self, too?

I'm probably not explaining this right. So, in the cycle we see our PJG in, the difference is that his mother kills herself instead of being killed by old, future PJG. And supposedly what's also different is that our PJG choses to kill his old, future PJG hence bringing about the reset. Doing in fact exactly what The Prophecy said in order to close the door of time: “Her destroyer son can only be killed by her creation. Only then will time start moving again”.  So, our PJG chooses to be "the creation" that kills "her destroyer son" aka future PJG who chose to become the Lord of Time. And then time does indeed start moving again, apparently from 2010 forward. In all the dimensions/parallel universes we saw. My question is, what happened before, between the other versions of young and old PJG to keep the cycle going? And isn't The Prophecy proven right in the end after all, with out PJG accomplishing the reset by doing exactly what The Prophecy said needed to be done to get out of this vicious cycle? 

:blink: I got a headache just typing this up, so please feel free to ignore this question/musing. I wonder if Joo Won was clear on all the hows and whys of the storyline while filming those final episodes... I'd love to pick his brain.

 

Either way though, like I said before, even with my many unanswered questions, I really enjoyed Alice because just like you said @kittyna, I think the observations and interpretations the drama makes/prompts on human nature are very meaningful and top any apparent inconsistency there might be in storytelling (though I'm convinced that hearing the writers'/creator's explanations might bring a lot more clarity on the time-travel aspects of the storyline, too). 

Edited by Calli
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3 hours ago, Calli said:

What I kept wondering about while watching the final two episodes again - and this might be really stupid but please bear with me - is what exactly had happened in the previous cycles for the younger PJG to turn into the old, bitter future PJG. I mean, I know what happens is that the younger PJG sees his mother murdered and grows bitter, chooses to become the Lord of Time - convinced that he's bound by The Prophecy - and goes on to kill countless people to keep time travel going. Or something along those lines. But in those previous cycles, doesn't the younger PJG end up killing his older self, too?

 

Ah - I think that I can answer this bit at least, based on my understanding of the final two episodes.

 

Short answer: No, no previous version of Park Jin Gyeom has succeeded in killing the Teacher. ;) 

 

Long answer: The clue here is in what the Teacher says to Jin Gyeom when they meet face-to-face at the end of Episode 15. He says that he once asked an old man (presumably the Teacher from when he was a young man) the same questions that Jin Gyeom's asking now, and that he tried to kill that old man, but wound up becoming him instead.

 

So I think that means that in each previous cycle that happened prior to the events of the drama, some version of Jin Gyeom confronted some version of the Teacher, but was somehow unable to finish the job by killing him - after which point the Teacher presumably dies from some natural cause while whichever version of Jin Gyeom we're dealing with ends up slowly growing and aging into the next Teacher. There are a few exceptions to this rule, it seems, which are hinted at in the other parallel universes (Episode 8 and Episode 13) we see. Yet even in those cases, the same core point holds true, which is that Jin Gyeom fails to kill the Teacher for some reason or another: in Episode 8, the Teacher (through some version of Go Hyung Seok) kills him first; in Episode 13, we see a Jin Gyeom who was so susceptible to his "Teacher's" influence that he ends up being the one to kill his mother himself; etc. 

 

What about the version of the Teacher that we see in Episodes 15/16, then? I think he actually came really close to succeeding - hence why he could have a memory of confronting the "Teacher" he met as a young man in whichever version of Alice was around then - but he seemed to have fallen into the temptation of being able to control time. Note that he uses that same rhetoric when he speaks to Jin Gyeom (i.e. "You won't believe me now, but I just saved your chance to become a lord of time by killing the professor/our mother."), so my guess is that that's what he was told in the past and that's what made him hesitate and ultimately fail. However, the Jin Gyeom we see, due perhaps to becoming aware of the prophecy sooner than his counterpart, has the determination not to allow the same thing to happen to himself - which is why, even after Park Sun Young's suicide in Episode 16, he doesn't hesitate to kill the Teacher despite knowing that doing so won't actually save his mother in that timeline (since she's already dead).

 

So, long story short, we seem to have a continuous loop where the same events play out over and over again, but with slight variations each time. And each of those variations brings about a different result, with our version of Jin Gyeom having that "perfect combination" to actually succeed in his quest. lol - I'm making this sound like a video game now, but perhaps that's the best way of explaining it.

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1 hour ago, kittyna said:

 

Ah - I think that I can answer this bit at least, based on my understanding of the final two episodes.

 

Short answer: No, no previous version of Park Jin Gyeom has succeeded in killing the Teacher. ;) 

 

@kittynathank you so much for answering my question. That really helped loads. Somehow, in my mind, the only logical thing for past versions of young PJG to do after confronting the Teacher / witnessing the Teacher kill his mother was to kill him, too. But that was clearly over simplifying things; there are so many more variables to consider, like you pointed out so well. Plus, just because our PJG was so determined to stop this cycle and had the inner strength to say no to that much power (and recognize the misery it came with), doesn't mean every version of PJG was. And our PJG's strongest motivation always was protecting his loved ones, particularly his mother. He was willing to sacrifice himself for her - maybe not every PJG who confronted the Teacher had that much selfless love inside of him... 

 

Either way, thank you so much for answering this question for me. My list of unanswered Alice questions got a little shorter^^ 

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Hey everyone, I just read news that Kim Hee Sun might be back in drama land with a webtoon-based fantasy drama (expected to air in the first half of 2022) and my first reaction was "yaaay" and then right after my heart sank because it reminded me that we still haven't gotten any drama news about Joo Won :sad1:

The thought of 2021 going by without seeing Joo Won in a drama is just too sad... 

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17 hours ago, Calli said:

Plus, just because our PJG was so determined to stop this cycle and had the inner strength to say no to that much power (and recognize the misery it came with), doesn't mean every version of PJG was. And our PJG's strongest motivation always was protecting his loved ones, particularly his mother. He was willing to sacrifice himself for her - maybe not every PJG who confronted the Teacher had that much selfless love inside of him... 

 

I think another thing that our Jin Gyeom had that some of his other versions didn't was lots of love from the people around him. Of course, he had to get the ball rolling first - no-one beyond his mother was going to love him if he actually did turn into a psychopath (like the Episode 13 version) - but our version of Jin Gyeom wound up having people like Go Hyung Seok and his wife, Kim Do Yeon, etc. helping him after his mother died. And, like Yoon Tae Yi says in Episode 15, I like to think that those were the people who kept him on the right track when he was most susceptible to turning dark.

 

At least the presence of that love might explain why the Teacher in our version failed. And as for the version of Park Jin Gyeom that was killed off in Episode 8...he might have had that, too (given that Tae Yi cares for him, at least), and just wound up with epically bad luck :( 

 

7 hours ago, Calli said:

and then right after my heart sank because it reminded me that we still haven't gotten any drama news about Joo Won :sad1:

The thought of 2021 going by without seeing Joo Won in a drama is just too sad... 

 

By the way, I'm just curious: is there any particular sort of role you'd like to see JW playing in the future? Like, a bucket list of archetypes/character types?

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1 hour ago, kittyna said:

At least the presence of that love might explain why the Teacher in our version failed. And as for the version of Park Jin Gyeom that was killed off in Episode 8...he might have had that, too (given that Tae Yi cares for him, at least), and just wound up with epically bad luck :( 

 

By the way, I'm just curious: is there any particular sort of role you'd like to see JW playing in the future? Like, a bucket list of archetypes/character types?

For sure. I personally believe that unless you're shown love and are thereby taught how to love, you can't properly feel and show love yourself... so I wanna believe that Park Sun Young loved her son dearly in all universes, but the people who loved him after his mom's death played a pivotal role in making PJG "our" PJG for sure. 

See, that's so interesting. I never really considered that PJG really died in episode 8... I thought that Taeyi's flashback to that dreadful moment was only a possible scenario that she managed to undo - along with PJG himself who chose to show complete trust in Go Hyeon Seok. But "possible scenario" is exactly what a parallel universe is, so I guess in that universe someone who was a lot like our PJG might have actually died. What a heartbreaking thought :tears:

 

As far as a bucket list of character types I'd like to see Joo Won portray, I fear I'll disappoint you @kittyna. No such list on my mind... my appreciation for certain actors is always built on their acting abilities but also on the choices they've made concerning the characters they play. So once I appreciate an actor (and I don't think I've ever appreciated an actor as much as I do Joo Won), said appreciation (& love in Joo Won's case) comes with a big portion of trust. And the wish that the actor in question can follow his own heart & mind in choosing their next character and project. So with Joo Won I inherently trust that he will make the best possible choice and hopefully one that is on his bucket list, if he has one^^ What about you? Sounds like you have such a bucket list? I remember you mentioning Sherlock Holmes?

 

Right now, personally, I'd just be so thrilled reading Joo Won upcoming drama casting news, I'd probably not even read the project/character description properly :P (I'm only half-kidding)

I really wonder though what kind of character he'd like to play and what kind of story he'd like to be part of. Watching Yong Pal at the moment, it makes me think of how at the time when he chose that project he felt like he needed to change himself instead of remaining who he was - thankfully in his deasang speech at the SBS drama awards that year he pointed out that getting this award was a sign for him that it was okay to remain true to himself. It must have been quite a journey for him back then... of hardship and personal growth.

Based on what I've learned about Joo Won so far, I honestly don't think he could ever be anything but true to himself but I just hope he'll keep making choices that will strengthen his faith in himself and that will allow him to be true to himself, while growing too. 

Edited by Calli
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Annyeong chingus! :dorakiss:

 

Hope everyone is well. Just visiting the thread, to check out if there are any casting news regarding Joo Won. But seems it's awfully quiet on that front, huh? :dissapointed:

 

Would love to see him in a new drama soon. :kiss_wink:

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20 minutes ago, partyon said:

Would love to see him in a new drama soon. :kiss_wink:

 

Same, same, same @partyon. So, soooo badly!! *fingerscrossed*

 

By the way, I have been meaning to ask you guys, does Joo Won have an official fancafe / fanclub? And is there a way to officially send him fan mail? 

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7 hours ago, Calli said:

By the way, I have been meaning to ask you guys, does Joo Won have an official fancafe / fanclub? And is there a way to officially send him fan mail? 

 

I think there used to be a Daum fancafe at one point, but I don't know if it's still active. Maybe someone who's been here longer than me( @flutterby06, @airplanegirl, etc.) would know more than me on that.

 

As for on sites like Instagram, there are a few localized fanclubs (e.g. ones for his Japanese fans, Thai fans, etc.), but I don't think there's an official English-language fanclub per se.

 

The closest thing I could think of off the top of my head is zu.won_supporters: the Korea-based group that organizes most of the merch, gifts, etc. So, for example, this is the group that does what's become an annual tradition for JW's birthday: painting a mural somewhere in Korea with cartoon versions of his drama characters (obviously, 2020 was the exception due to COVID-19, but you get the idea). Announcements they make tend to then spread to the regional fanclubs via Instagram, but it's usually up to individual Instagram users for those to be translated into English.

 

8 hours ago, partyon said:

Hope everyone is well. Just visiting the thread, to check out if there are any casting news regarding Joo Won. But seems it's awfully quiet on that front, huh?

 

There's Carter, as far as recent news goes, but that's about it. It's too early in the game for any behind-the-scenes goodies from that (like, has anyone else been cast for it yet, even?), but I'm definitely looking forward to those updates once they start.

 

12 hours ago, Calli said:

See, that's so interesting. I never really considered that PJG really died in episode 8... I thought that Taeyi's flashback to that dreadful moment was only a possible scenario that she managed to undo - along with PJG himself who chose to show complete trust in Go Hyeon Seok. But "possible scenario" is exactly what a parallel universe is, so I guess in that universe someone who was a lot like our PJG might have actually died. What a heartbreaking thought :tears:

 

Honestly, that possibility (that a version of Jin Gyeom actually died in Episode 8) only occurred to me recently. For a long while, I thought of it like you did: that Tae Yi had somehow gone into "our" future and seen what happened and thus tried to prevent it. But if we consider the good Seok Oh Won's theory about all possible outcomes being their own separate parallel universes, then either interpretation is possible.

 

12 hours ago, Calli said:

Watching Yong Pal at the moment, it makes me think of how at the time when he chose that project he felt like he needed to change himself instead of remaining who he was - thankfully in his deasang speech at the SBS drama awards that year he pointed out that getting this award was a sign for him that it was okay to remain true to himself. It must have been quite a journey for him back then... of hardship and personal growth.

 

If I recall correctly from that Daesang speech and his similar comments on Healing Camp, I think the main thing JW was struggling with wasn't so much his image as an actor or the projects he chose, but his behaviour on set: whether it's really okay to just power through any challenges that come his way without complaint. That seems to be what his innate personality is like, but he was starting to question whether that made him a pushover (or, at least, that's the impression I got from Healing Camp), so I think that's where his determination "not to change" came from once he won the Daesang: JW realized that he was fine as he was, no matter how unique or unconventional his personality might be for a millennial like him.

 

That Daesang speech and the Healing Camp episode that preceded it seemed to be an ending to a tough journey that he'd been going through since his time on 1N2D. I don't know how far you've gotten on that show yet, but by the time you get to the second half - where the PD wound up including more of his introspective moments - you'll see that JW was struggling to meet the audience's expectations for him as a variety show maknae because that image clashed so much with what he was actually like. It's genuinely heartwrenching watching him second-guess himself in those moments (saying things like he wasn't funny enough, he was letting people down, etc. - and he revealed after leaving the show that he did get trolled by haters online in that way), so it's great that he wound up gaining that confidence at the end of it all :approves:

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8 hours ago, kittyna said:

If I recall correctly from that Daesang speech and his similar comments on Healing Camp, I think the main thing JW was struggling with wasn't so much his image as an actor or the projects he chose, but his behaviour on set: whether it's really okay to just power through any challenges that come his way without complaint. That seems to be what his innate personality is like, but he was starting to question whether that made him a pushover (or, at least, that's the impression I got from Healing Camp), so I think that's where his determination "not to change" came from once he won the Daesang: JW realized that he was fine as he was, no matter how unique or unconventional his personality might be for a millennial like him.

 

That Daesang speech and the Healing Camp episode that preceded it seemed to be an ending to a tough journey that he'd been going through since his time on 1N2D. I don't know how far you've gotten on that show yet, but by the time you get to the second half - where the PD wound up including more of his introspective moments - you'll see that JW was struggling to meet the audience's expectations for him as a variety show maknae because that image clashed so much with what he was actually like. It's genuinely heartwrenching watching him second-guess himself in those moments (saying things like he wasn't funny enough, he was letting people down, etc. - and he revealed after leaving the show that he did get trolled by haters online in that way), so it's great that he wound up gaining that confidence at the end of it all :approves:

 

Dear @kittyna, thank you so much for all the information regarding Joo Won's fansites. I should check his agency's site regarding fanmail but my guess is everything will be only in Korean~

I keep repeating myself but it's really too bad Joo Won Cutie isn't an active fansite anymore :'( 

 

I really enjoyed reading the part of your post regarding Joo Won's journey from ca 2012 to 2015 and his inner struggle at the time, coming to terms with his perceived need to change and coming more firmly into himself by the end of 2015.

You know, because it's been a little while now since I watched Healing Camp and a few other 2015 interviews, I remember taking away that general thought that he was grappling with the notion of change at the time - and even before that in his appearance on Win Win in 2012 this whole idea of change was very prevalent in him: him trying very hard not to change and hold on to his mindset, especially in terms of how he viewed love; he wanted to resist ever becoming calculating or cynical in matters of love and I remember how moved I was and how much I appreciated his feelings. He was 25 at the time (by European reckoning) and the fact that he hated the idea of experience and the passing of years changing his outlook on love told me so much about the man he was/is. 

 

Anyway, getting more into the year of 2015, as I already mentioned, I came across that thought of change repeatedly - in the Yong Pal press conference and in several interviews and of course his daesang acceptance speech (I really need to rewatch Healing Camp again, I think I'll take away more from it now than I did when I first watched it). And to be honest, I was a little fuzzy on what exactly he was referring to when he talked of change; because sometimes it seemed he was talking about changing as an actor, like he did in the Yong Pal press conference where he said: "For me, it was the time I wanted to make a change (in my acting)". Or in the special interview for Yongpal where he said: "Actually, when I first started Yongpal, I also told the Director this, 'For me, it's about time where change is required.' So I told him 'I want to change'. Thus, I had a different mindset participating in Yongpal. " Of course even here, he might have been talking about change in a broader sense. And at other times, like in his Daesang acceptance speech, it seems rather clear that he spoke of him changing who he was, not as an actor, but as Joo Won the person  - and I'm so so glad he drew the conclusion that he didn't :')

 

I agree very much with your assessment on the impact 1N2D had on him - I'm not very far along yet but I had already researched why he left the show and had stumbled on the soompi article you shared, so I was already a little aware of his worries about his image, not being funny enough - not being fun enough or even interesting enough - and then he explicitly talked about this in Healing Camp too of course. I think the fact that, even though he had major successes to his name already very early on, basically from the beginning of his drama career in 2010, and despite of that he didn't get as much media coverage as other actors his age with possibly less successful CVs did, and just not as much of a hype, might have made him question whether it was okay to be who he was. Like you said so perfectly - "a unique and unconventional" character for a celebrity. And his experience with some of the responses he got while on 1N2D must have added to his worries a lot. So I'm really really glad that he had the inner strength and confidence to stay true to himself. Beyond his acting and singing abilities, he's just such a wonderful, sincere human being. He's really one-of-a-kind imo, in the best way possible. 

 

I often think about how he took up drama classes in middle school because, as a kid, he was introverted and reserved, and how he discovered his calling and his passion that way. The fact that even back then he didn't allow his reservedness to become an obstacle in finding ways to express himself already speaks of so much strength, and of his need to connect. And he connects with so so many people - both within the audience and the people who have the good fortune of working with him - both through his acting & singing and through his personality:fullofhearts: 

 

(sorry for the long, disorganized rambling. I'm multitasking at the moment and I really suck at that) 

 

 

 

Edited by Calli
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So sorry to be posting back to back but Joo Won posted on his insta story and I just had to share the happiness^^:happydance:

https://instagram.com/stories/zu.won_moon.jun.won/2546551231401411877?utm_source=ig_story_item_share&igshid=1k756h0f9ebbp

 

You guys can probably decipher the image much better than me but might JW be endorsing some kind of clothing brand? 

I'd love a close-up or at least a clearer picture of him in glasses so much - I have such a weak spot for handsome men wearing glasses:wub:

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  • partyon changed the title to Joo Won 주원 [Upcoming Movie "Carter" 2021]

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