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On 9/24/2016 at 1:45 PM, littleloony said:h @brieloverd 

@bebebisous33

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4 minutes ago, UnniSarah said:

LMAO... Chingu You are so right. You listed all Hae Soo's action to a tee. It is a typical check list for Korean Drama's

Very true - but I would say much more in line with modern Korean dramas.  Now transplant her to a sageuk, that's where the originality comes in.

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@littleloony  @bebebisous33 @briseis  @valsava  and everyone else

You guys are the bomb!  Since I posted the Yuhwa/Hae Su/Ha Jin myth speculation, I haven't really come onto the board much but I've been reading such good anaysis here and there.  Most recently littleloony's analysis of how Hae Su chooses So, and then the above comment about Hae Soo and reality from bebebisous33 as well as various from briseis.

I like how the Wang Wook situation plays out in the initial water scenes as well.  All the potential princes to inherit after Mu (Mu in fact has his own water daughter legend attached to him in history - an extremely interesting legend wherein his own mother was found by Taejo in the water - shades of Lady Oh, the test case cut short - Su's forerunner) were present in the baths except So.  Wook actually becomes her choice from that first "emergence" - river daughter found in the water - scenario, but shortly thereafter she meets So, and we get a second "emergence" this time to So alone.  This foreshadowing is very interesting, not only contrasting the two romances, but also Su's loyalties to her first loves - the princes in toto, with Wook primary - and then her second love - So alone.  For Su, this will likely be the central conflict both in heart and history in the remaining episodes.  Divided loyalties between care for the princes, and love for So.

A comment a character made to Ji Mong near the start of the series has stuck with me: "You always put your predictions in two pots".  It is as if two histories, or two futures, might be possible, and I think these two "water" emergences highlight the two.  Su could choose Wook, who I do believe she loves and he loves her, and I don't think he is particularly greedy or shallow or whatever failings we might ascribe to him.  I think his only "flaw" is in fact that he is not ruthless like So.  As a human being, he's better than So for the most part, but he would be unable to play the part that real Wang So in history plays and enact the tyrant to stabilize the fledgeling nation.  Goryeo needs So, therefore Su needs So.  One and the same.  Goryeo needs a ruthless ruler at this stage in history; Su is going to need a ruthless lover who will fight for her at all costs.  One and the same.

I've read a lot of analysis on the scar and the bracelet that is excellent.  One thing I haven't seen (though might have missed it because I have by no means read all these thousands of comments) is the correlation between the scar as history/brutal truth and the bracelet as fantasy/comfortable myth.  While Su has had her tribulations in Goryeo, much of the narrative up to this point has been shaded by the mythological - river daughter heroine beloved by princes, wolf-dog prince, tragic forbidden love, heaven's mandate in the rain, etc.  I suggest that this is the jade bracelet.  Underneath is the scar, the true history of Goryeo that is about to unfold - greed, murder, incest, jealousy, betrayal, ambition for the throne.  When Su identifies Wang So without any room for doubt as Gwangjong, we mark a real transition from the fantastical beginnings of empires that are often mythologically based to the true, real, raw, gritty reality of history.  I suspect that from hereon out, we'll be seeing much more of the scars - the reality - of Goryeo than the fantasy world of the jade bracelet.

Time for Su to wake up to the reality of Goryeo which she has just seen in glimpses. @bebebisous33 is so right about her rose-coloured glasses.  Su can't stay the same, she has to change.  She's served her purpose in a mythological sense, now we get to see what she does in a historical sense as she attempts to influence So.  What we'll get I suspect is the same history she knows but an inside interpretation of it that neither she nor the people of the future know.

This turned into an essay, but thanks to you all for greasing the gears in my head!

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45 minutes ago, bebebisous33 said:

@lirone  First welcome to forum soompi and to this thread! I would like to reply to your comment. In the SBS version (episode 8), when Wang So told her, she was his and was bending to her, she was first like paralysed, then she didn't touch her bracelet, but her wrist. Only a few seconds later, she touched the bracelet. And this was really telling. Wang So had touched her wrist so many times:

- episode 7 (twice)

- episode 2

Furthermore, notice how the camera zoomed to Wang So's face, when she was finished with the make-up. The camera was supposed to be her eyes in my opinion.   For the first time, she is really looking at him and his face. Before, she was just the worker and this picture reveals how attractive he is to her. I have also noticed that after she was finished, Hae Soo was showing the mirror so that he would look at himself, but she didn't pay attention to his face. Moreover, Wang So's gaze was not directed in the direction of the mirror. He was only looking at her. For me, this scene illustrates the physical attraction she has for Wang So. She came to like him as a person, when he was wearing his mask because she could sense that he was a good person despite his bad reputation and his looks. Before, she was never looking at him as a man, but for me, here she reacts diffrently. As conclusion, taking her wrist first is connected to Wang So which reinforces my impression that she is memerised by him. Then she touched the bracelet as if she wanted to remind herself that she was with Wang Wook.

So in my opinion, Hae Soo has already started falling for Wang So but she has not realised it yet. Striking is that when Wang Wook told her that he loved her, she only hugged him. She didn't reply to his love confession. From my point of view, she couldn't say that she loved him. In the episode 7, she had said to herself, she liked Wang Wook. And for me, there is a difference between liking and loving. She only had eyes for Wang So after joining the other court ladies. She didn't look at Wang Wook who noticed it.

Lastly, Wang Wook's love confession looked to me like a goodbye/farewell. First, before he joined Hae Soo, he sighed as if he was about to do something painful. He wasn't very happy to meet her, although he did the opposite. He hid his true feelings. Then when he gave her the present and told her later, he loved her, I couldn't help myself thinking of the episode 5, when lady Hae had died. He had waited, until she was about to die, when he wanted to tell her that he loved her. My feelings were: Wang Wook is doing it again, only this time, he is able to confess, however this is a break up, but noone will say it as such. She knew that her situation wouldn't change, she only asked him to wait, well aware that would not happen. 

In my opinion, Hae Soo has already started falling in love with Wang So. But the visions happened therefore she was so shaken. She had come to like and become attracted to wang So, when she saw that he would be the future Gwangjong. This was another reason why she was so scared. She had already feelings for him, but unlike Wang So, she is not aware of it yet, as she had this little romance with Wang Wook.

@evie7 @junee22 @Yongzura @littleloony

      

I really like this interpretation!

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We need to remember what Su's imperative is for being in Goryeo in the first place. 

"Save the boy."

That little boy's name was Eun Wol in modern Korea (his relatives call out to him by name). Su dives in to save him, the eclipse begins, time shifts, and she emerges from the water to find another Eun this time in Goryeo. A Eun that acts much younger than his age - a defining feature - to highlight his connection to that little boy in Korea. People blame Baekhyun for overacting, and he does, but he has also been directed to act in just this way. 

This helps explain to me why Eun gets  so much more screentime relative to the other princes. 

Eun Wol - the little boy in Korea - is likely a reincarnation of Eun, 10th prince of Goryeo. 

And Su's imperative remains. 

"Save the boy". 

Doesn't this give much more impact - and horror - to the vision she just saw?  She's been catapaulted to Goryeo perhaps for a variety of reasons (see my river-daughter post p 516 if you're interested in some mythical/historical possibilities), but her main and most immediate imperative is to save Eun. 

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18 minutes ago, LyraYoo said:

Here is the subbed SBS version 

 

Wow!  Why on earth would they cut this scene off?  That was terrific.

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Did anyone put up ratings?  I just skimmed and didn't see them.  Wikipedia reports 6.9% up from 5.8% last week.  

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1 hour ago, bebebisous33 said:

 

@brielover Great insight about the symbol of water and the myth of Goreyo's foundation.   I loved it  as it forced me to think a little deeper. I am glad that @bluemoony added two more observations: Yo and Mu were als blessed from Hae Soo (tea or water) so that we can conclude that she is the one who decides who will be king. But she has no idea about her own function.

Your information explains now why Hae Soo is so loved by the princes (except one). Hae Soo symbolises the country/nation Goreyo therefore the princes will fight for her. Hae Soo is the metapher for the nation. As such, first she tries to unify the brothers (just like unifying the country/ she is nice to all the princes), but at some point, they become more selfish and ambitious so that they will claim Hae Soo as their own and fight for it/her. As conclusion, Wang So's claim is really interesting: just before he goes to the ceremony, he claims her as his!! So he reveals his ambition. Sure, in the drama he is only claiming the woman Hae Soo as his, but if we consider Hae Soo as a metapher for the country, then in reality he is already claiming for the throne.  

Striking is that Yo is the only one who ignores Hae Soo and even looks down on her. This makes me think that Yo's real desire is not to become King, but he has to. He has no real ambition at all, he is just doing it in order to get his mother's love ad recognition. His mother is the one who wants him to become the King so that she can rule the country by using her son. I find it very striking that Yoo tries to act like the kingmaker and as such she wants to shine like the sun, but she is fake: Hae Soo is the real one.

Furthermore we have two princes who have less romantical interest for Hae Soo: Baek Ah and Eun. Both are considered by Hae Soo as friends. Striking is that they both are not interested in becoming a king, while all the others are. Even Jung who seems so innocent and young is actually more ambitious than it meets the eye. He is the one who said to Hae Soo:

- Since you saved my life, my life is yours. These words could be seen: he will dedicate his life for the nation, for Goreyo.

- Moreover, he is shown fighting and he even came once with a sword and told Hae Soo to watch him how he will become a great man and fighter. Baek Ah and Eun are portrayed differently. Eun loves playing and he can't stand killing animals, while Baek Ah is seen drawing. He is more into arts and he has ideals. He only wishes to be free. Both show no real ambition.

As you can see, the nature of the relationship to Hae Soo matters: the friends are not interested in her and as such, they are not ambitious; the romantic ones are ambitious and the one who is not interested in her, he only acts for his mother. It is not his true ambition. Now, you'll ask: what's with Mu and Won?

Notice that Mu has become a supporter of Hae Soo (he helped Wang So to convince Ji Mong to help them to stop the wedding). He treats her well so that she is supporting him. Furthermore he is sick (his physical weakness represents his political weakness) so that he needs Hae Soo's help. Therefore he will become a king but not for long as he is weak and he is not ambitious like his other brothers. We heard his conversation to Ji Mong. He is not really interested and he feels his position as a burden, while Wang So is really embracing Hae Soo (and as such the duty to rule the country). 

I would like to point out that Won, the 9th prince, is ambitious but he is more like Wang Wook in the sense that he doesn't show it. He is waiting and looking to partner up with the strongest one. The way he is behaving around Yo is telling. His ambition can be seen through his wealth and taking care of his own body. He asked Yo in the episode 1 to look at his muscles, a metapher for his strength. So he is training his muscles. this could be interpretated as if he was preparing his own army. As such, he needs money therefore he is wealthy. His wealth is witnessed at the birthday party. Funny is that his biggest weakness is his talk. He always says something inappropriate ("she is as good as a gisaeng; next time she will die aso") so that he is criticised by his brothers. To me, this inability to talk can be seen as an lack of political support. He is not a good thinker and talker so that he will never get the support he wants. 

Finally, I have to talk about Wang Wook. Above, I mentioned his ambition without really explaining it. As such, we need to talk about his relationship with Hae Soo since she is the metaphore for the nation. Lady Hae was the one who wanted him to marry Hae Soo implying that he should be the one who claims Hae Soo as his own, but he refused to do it, too scared and afraid of the consequences. Nonetheless, he claimed her as his in front of Wang So, revealing that he had always seen the throne and nation as his, as if it was his due. Nonetheless, he is scared as well. Since he wants to possess Hae Soo (the nation) therefore we can see it as an ambition. He claims Hae Soo as his without doing anything. On the other hand, Wang Wook is the one who is supported by many. Remember, he told to his wife that many would come to him. In my opinion, he was building his net of supporters (the supply for food episode 3). He is pushed by his family in that direction, but unsure to do it. However, deep down he wants it. His passivity towards Hae Soo is explained by this feeling that the throne is entitled to him. He doesn't need to take concrete steps and he only waits because at some point, he will get the throne/Hae soo. I have just observed that he was the one who asked for Hae Soo's feelings which offers another possibility to go to the meta level: he wants to get chosen by Hae Soo, without doing anything. As conclusion, Wang Wook is the kind of prince who expects to become king without being really active like his other brothers (Jung, Won or Wang So).

As conclusion, the princes represent different kind of princes and their attitude towards the throne, like f. ex.

- a puppet: like Yo

- Won: someone with money but lacking in political support and he is not clever

Thanks to you @brielover, we can see a glimpse of the evolution of our drama and the ending:

- Hae Soo will reject Wang So first (he shows his pure ambition which shocks her) therefore she will distance herself from him. That's why he will struggle first so that Mu and Yo will become king before him.

- Hae Soo will realise that being ambitious is not something negative as such or that he was forced to so that she will finally love him implying she is supporting him.

- She will influence him in a good way so that he is first a good king.

- But at some point, they will be separated  (due to his obsession: his love for Goreyo will be too strong so that he overdoes it) therefore Wang So will change into a different ruler and king which will lead to hae Soo's death. Leaving him will change him: he will become the ruler she feared.

Okay, that's it. Thanks a lot for the support as people keep asking for my analysis. I hoped, it wasn't too boring. MAybe it was too long 

Tell me what you think about it... I am eager to get some feedback. @Yongzura @valsava @littleloony @junee22 @evie7 @40somethingahjumma

 

Wow, @Bebelicious, that's a great analysis.  I was thinking about this too - how each prince connects to  Hae Su if she represents the lifeblood/water of Goryeo and chooses the king.  Re Mu - interesting that she pours some water out to heal him but is stopped from completing the process.  As if those ministrations were cut short (as his life will be).  Re Yo - unlike the Crown Prince, she's forced into serving him, and burns him a bit while doing it.  One gets the sense that he wants the throne but not Goryeo itself, and the people/land/nobles are going to "burn" him if they can.  We'll see!  Regarding the others, yes, I can really see the possibilities you mention, especially the friends vis a vis the lovers, as those who are friends to her and those who romantically love her.  Wook and So's battle for Goryeo will likely mirror their battle for her.  Fun to look forward to.

I just watched the subbed version and gosh this is getting good.  My only complaint is that there is now one less episode to watch!

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1 hour ago, bluemoony said:

 

Since we know Mu and then Yo are supposed to be kings before Wang So, I wonder if it's significant that she poured water on the crown prince and spilled tea on Yo, in addition to "watering" So in the garden.  I can't remember her spilling water on anyone else,. The deluge of rain on So in the last scene is a direct outcome of the makeup job, so he seems to be getting blessed more than anyone else by this river-daughter's incarnation.  I'm keeping my eye on water symbolism from now on.

Oh brilliant!  I think you're right - good addition to the water symbols. Thanks!

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34 minutes ago, valsava said:

@brielover  Wow I would have never associated Hs character being apart of the Goruyeo time period but being she's in the Goryeo time period and what your take on this explains a lot better being that she's a daughter of water to and how water plays a significanse to the story as a whole.. Gorguyeo was a mythical time period and also explained somethings about the drama jumong I never thought that deeply of and it's my favorite Saguek of all time better yet the very first Korean Saguek I ever watch.. I never read the book and only saw the C-version of this drama and didn't finish it all because I didn't like were ending was heading..  Thanks for this brilliant comment on HS character and look forward to more of your insightful comments..  

 

Thanks so much!  I just made ths connection last episode and did a tentative posting on dramabeans, where I'll repost this whole thing once the ep 8 recap is out. There might be discussion about it over there, where I post as Barbrey. So glad it added to your insight into Jumong, which I haven't seen but have heard good things about.  The writer for this drama has done a brilliant adaptation, not only using Korean history but layering it with Korean myth and symbolism too, while still, from what I understand from people who saw the original, keeping mofe or lezs to the spirit and progression of the original. Quite a feat to intertwine it all and keep it so fresh and interesting. 

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I touched on this in another forum but thought I would share here as well. 

The premise is that Hae Soo is not just some girl from thd 21st century randomly chosen to go back in time, but that she is a reincarnation of the founding of Korea itself - whoever she chooses to give her heart to will become the king that guarantees the success of the new nation of Goryeo. 

This theory stems from her names - Go Ha Jin and Hae Su- and from her association with water. 

Korea's foundation myth is built on the founding of Goguryeo, the kingdom preceding Goryeo. (Korea takes its name from Goryeo which in turn took its name from Goguryeo). 

There are two versions, but basically the river god's daughter, Yuhwa, is found in or by the water by Hae Mo Su, she marries him and gives birth to Jumong who founds the kingdom of Goguryeo. Another version has her marrying but leaving him before granting her heart to another and then giving birth to Jumong. In effect, whoever she chooses to love becomes the father of the nation. 

I wouldn't have paid much attention to this myth except for a few things. One is that Hae Su is associated with water like the river king's daughter. She falls into water, appears almost miraculously in the Goryeo baths, which as we saw is right on the river/hot springs, has visions in water, is first seen by all the princes (all potential heirs to the throne) in the water, and even Wang So must see her in a later scene - as if the first water appearance had left him out so she has to go re-do it - emerging from the water of the baths and she later splashes Wang So with water - like a baptism - while watering plants. Consequential scenes from previews - the rain, possible break up with Wook, the boat with So - also stay in tune with this water symbolism. I think we're supposed to draw a connection between Hae Su and the river god's daughter Yuhwa. Whoever she chooses will become the leader of the nation. This is perhaps also highlighted by the princes falling in love with her - she represents the lifeblood - water - of the land. 

This is emphasized by her name. The original royal family of Gogureo were the Haes, stemming as said from Hae Mo Su and Yuhwa. Twice we are told that Hae Su belongs to the Hae Ha Jin clan. So she's a Hae, and her modern time name is Ha Jin.  But she's Go Ha Jin not Hae Ha Jin in modern times, so there's a glitch there, until a little research reveals that many of the royal Hae family took the royal name  Go. So when we're told by Hae Su's relatives that the clan name is Hae Ha Jin, it's actually the same name as Go Ha Jin, her name in the future. 

I like all these associations because it layers the story with myth, legend and a history that both precedes and post-dates Goryeo, tying in the Goryeo events with ancient Goguryeo and present day Korea. The throughline is our main character, Hae Su/Go Ha Jin. Her first incarnation was likely as the river god's daughter, Yuhwa, or a daughter of Hae Mo Su and Yuhwa, who reincarnates as Hae Su and eventually Go Ha Jin, a cosmetologist from the 21st century. Her purpose is to choose the best founder for the fledgeling nation. All subliminal, of course, but it's giving the story a texture I hadn't thought about previously, as well as a context for the otherwise somewhat awkward bath scene in the first episode. She's meant to be found in the water a la the river god's daughter by possible contenders to the throne - the scriptwriter took that and gave us the semi-erotic bath scene. I appreciate that scene so much more now!

Edit to add: Since I posted, I have watched episode 8 with subs.  I found it interesting that Su has two romantic encounters with each of her potentials.  The first is with Wook in a cave with a "covered well".  Thinking about the placement of water, this water is still, protected, controlled, covered up underground. This is quite possibly a metaphor for the life Wook offers Su, a metaphor reinforced by his scar-covering bracelet.  Compare this to her encounter with So in the boat.  While the water would normally be free-flowing, it is a little muddy, becalming the ship where these two accidentally lie together, equals.  All that water needs, however, is a little rain to float the boat.  And we get rain at the end of the episode - so this particular So-Su "ship" seems ready to sail.  I noticed too that Su says in this episode that what she wants most is not to be controlled.  So of the two, protection or freedom, I think her choice is clear even if she is only just beginning to realize it this episode.

Bluemoony added that since we know Mu and Yo will be short-lived kings before So, it doesn't seem coincidental in light of the river-daughter imagery that she throws water on Mu and spills tea on Yo aside from "watering" So in the garden.  She doesn't spill anything on any of the other princes.