brielover
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Posts posted by brielover
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3 hours ago, uglypearl said:
It's between YeonWoo or CheongMyeong. One of them killed the other and one of them reincarnated as ChanSeong.
Oh so it will be a past life. Makes the most sense.
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6 minutes ago, uglypearl said:
If 0 represents CS in 404
It could mean that CS is surrounded by dead people.
--- Since yeong (0) also means eternal/forever, CS will forever be the one that MW love.
It could possibly foreshadow that CS will face another death.
--- The first 4 means he already died and he got reincarnated the second 4 that he might face death again (I hope this won't happen).
It's either MW or CS or it could be both,
I read somewhere before that when MW became the owner of the inn (now hotel) some of her memories were erased.
It could also be CS because he still can only see partial parts of the pasts through his dreams but eventually he'll find out the truth about who he was and what really happened to MW and the past
Speaking about this Baekdu Mountain (Baekdusan) painting
It's possible it's the same lake in episode 6 where ManWol and CheongMyung had a conversation.
Speaking about the lake, the lake in Baekdu is called Cheonji Lake or the "Heaven Lake"
Like the tiger, to MW that place like a heaven or a paradise to her, where she had good , happy and fondest moments and memories in the past.
Now she can never return to those moments or never go back to the past when she was truly happy.
It's possible that it's foreshadowing that someone will go after CS and takes his revenge on him.
I read somewhere that in CS's past life his friend was killed by him and that friend take his revenge.
additional :
it could also be
1) letting go of her pain and sorrows in the past and move on
2) conquering their fate /destiny
The dog symbolizes loyalty, fidelity, faithfulness.
CS will remain loyal to her and never love anyone else or never get married even to the last day of his life.
Though it's bittersweet, It's possible that they'll meet again in next life (reincarnation)
Some very plausible answers here. I particularly like that it might be CS who doesn't see her memories accurately, and actually he's been misunderstanding lots of things to date though he is learning fast.
The beach, the lake, the painting lake, Diana's Mirror - lake at ritual site - they've all got similarities in vista and scene construction. Tenuous but not a big stretch. Doubtful that anything much will come from this but her natural home does seem to be beside a body of water!
Yes, the dog metaphor could hold true.
Who is this friend that CS killed in his past? Or is that a past life? Can you imagine him killing someone in this one except out of desperate self-defense or an accident? Even then, wouldn't something like that have scarred his optimistic personality? I wonder how this plot will play out.
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Am I imagining it or is her style getting, not fully, but generally softer as times goes on. More floating, floral, pastels and whites? Or maybe the weather is just warming up lol.
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I n Gothic Lit, which I studied, you can often identify the main female protagonist with the house itself, and each character in the house is a reflection of one o r more aspects of the main character. This is of course a ghost story and is an example of the Gothic, so I do think the sisters are very cognizant of the ghosts reflecting aspects of MW. I've already said the tree is her, but the inn was made from the tree - the Hotel del Luna is Man Weol. The characters act separately but also as part of her. CS is the only exception.
I was really reminded of Jenny's Song from Game of Thrones. A much more melancholic take, of course (though I am expecting some tears in future episodes), but the same in that I suspect these are Man Weol's ghosts, just as Jenny's are hers. Here are the lyrics:
High in the halls of the kings who are gone
Jenny would dance with her ghosts
The ones she had lost and the ones she had found and the ones who had loved her the most
The ones who’d been gone for so very long
She couldn’t remember their names
They spun her around on the damp cold stone
Spun away her sorrow and pain
And she never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave
Never wanted to leave
They danced through the day and into the night
Through the snow that swept through the halls
From winter to summer and winter again
Til the walls did crumble and fall
High in the halls of the kings who are gone
Jenny would dance with her ghosts
The ones she had lost and the ones she had found and the ones who had loved her the most
And she never wanted to leave...
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5 hours ago, uglypearl said:
Sorry if someone already posted this
Speaking about Room 404
404 in Hangeul is "사영사" (Sa Yeong Sa)
4 사 sa - another meaning is "death" ( "死" in hanja )
0 영 yeong - another meaning is "forever/ eternal" ("永" in hanja )
- it could also mean "spirit" ("靈" in hanja )
Based from this meaning, it's possible that the people who entered in that room will die and become a spirit/soul
0 is between two 4's (two 4's are blocking the 0) - the soul will be trapped and remain there forever / for all eternity.
Ooh, and we know that CS was the 0 choice. CS stuck between 2 deaths? Lol.
Just wanted to post my take on the escaped ghost in terms of my golden bough/Diana theory a few pages back. The most famous Diana myth is the myth of Actaeon, a man who peeks at chaste Diana while she's having a bath. Diana in her rage, impulsively transforms him into a stag, and his own dogs tear him to pieces.
And now we have a vengeful Ring like ghost operating in a very specific way, inviting men to pornographically peek at her. And if they do, she presumably sends them insane or kills them. So we've got yet another parallel to the Diana myth but with the Hong Sister's very enjoyable take on this base.
As I stated before, and others of you have as well, each of these ghost cases relate back to Man Weol. For me, I see them relate to her as an avatar of Diana, in particular, but other myths cling as well. Regardless we can see her persona in each. She does have a bad temper, she can act on impulse, I can definitely see her as vengeful. So is ghost 13 not only a ghost she has to contain or eliminate as an external 'spirit" but in her internal "spirit" as well?
We could maybe do a list of these things she needs to learn or reflections of her persona. I know at bitchesoverdramas one was started but I'd have things to add.
1. Memory gets twisted (the blind ghost). Is her memory twisted?
2. The tiger and the painting. She's like the tiger, dead but alive, just standing in place because she has no place to return to - it no longer exists? (Just to point out here, as well, that the landscape painting of a lake is very close to Diana's Mirror, the lake at her ritual site at Nemi in Italy).
3. The red string was cut. Is this why she believes CS can't be the Captain - was the tie between her and the Captain cut in the past so he would never reincarnated s her soul mate? But Ma go has 'made a path' again? My instinct but could be many other interpretations. Yours?
4. The old man and the dog. Foreshadowing? How is this related to MW? (I'm tempted to do another Diana analogy because she is so associated with hounds, but I can't place anything exact.)
5. Can't forget the raging vengeful spirit at the beginning dressed in armour.
Anyway, just spitballing, but love your take.
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10 minutes ago, sadthe1st said:
as much as we discussed the excitement and possibilities of the plot progress, i get slightly worried on how the Hong sisters are going to tie up the loose ends towards the ending might become a disappointment
i’m still agonised by the horrible disappointment with A Korean Odyssey.. we are 10 episodes away.. throw in a few more to help the hotel staffs with their worldly matters before heading to afterlife.. some love hate relationship between MW and CS.. we are almost left with not much time!!!
I was posting with some negativity - just a bit - during the first four episodes for that very reason. I wasn't that keen on the chemistry, and I felt there were uneven scenes as well, and it all seemed a little familiar to KO. But I'm not worried since 5 and 6 came out. I can feel the chemistry now. The direction suddenly feels much more self-assured. And the story telling and pacing are much better than K.O. By this point in K.O. I was considering dropping it.
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6 hours ago, vangsweetie637 said:
@brielover you are right! That is a hand on the floor! I never looked at it thoroughly until i saw that extra hand on CS. It even looks like that hand is supposed to belong to Room Service lady given the fact that its arm blends into hers. But then RS lady has her arms all to herself already. And then I thought to myself “is it intentional, a mistake, or am i going crazy?!
I was so creeped out!
Maybe it is just a photo error???
I'd never even seen the full poster before but even if I had I'm not very observant so doubt I'd notice a spare hand! Very clever. It makes me like this show even more, if that's possible!
did you check out that link I sent you? Now THAT really creeped me out though I don't believe in ghosts. There was no Photoshop back then!
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2 hours ago, vangsweetie637 said:
Am i going crazy?
Do you guys see the extra hand between our CS and Room Service lady??
room service lady already has both her hands to herself. So whose hand is looped between our CS then??
Omigod. You're right! Has no one caught this before? How creepy!
There is a photo I'll try to find a link to that they are likely riffing on, a historical picture of a bunch of people that appears to have an extra arm. https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/news/a39164/spot-ghost-in-black-white-photo/
Does that hand look male or female lol!
And is that another hand on the floor?
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13 hours ago, angelbeast90 said:
When I started watching from episode 1 I was sure she killed someone she loved and that's why she was roaming around restlessly to get peace now I'm starting to feel she killed Captain Firefly due to reasons out of her control!
I feel both of these are a strong possibility.
Remember Princess Bride and the old witch publicly haranguing Buttercup for betraying true love? "Shame, shame!". My first intuition was something like this might have happened.
But based on my myth reading, it's possible she was tricked into shooting him from afar not knowing she was aiming at a head, in particular her lover's head. So she killed him but not purposefully.
The other thing I just though t of - as I mentioned before there is a huge theme of substitution going on between the women and between the men. Is it possible MW is paying for the Princess of the past's sin?
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I was thinking about CS being the 49th manager. I know in Buddhism it takes 49 days (thank you kdramas) for consciousness after death to travel from one life to another, so the use of 49 seems to be related. Moreover, it kind of makes sense when she tells him he was the zero choice. It makes me think he was the original way back in her past, and has now been reborn as 49th. It does seem to hint he's been reincarnated finally, not after 49 days but after 49 lifetimes.
Still confused about which he is though!
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1 hour ago, debbsthebee said:
@brielover very interesting, thanks for sharing. so based on your theory, is it right to say that CS is not a reincarnation of MW's past love (either the captain or Yeon Woo)?
Seem to have lost my reply to this. I don't know. The Diana ritual is a dying/sacrificial king who is then resurrected. Symbolically he's the same person, in reality he's a different man. So that doesn't really help lol!
All I can say is that the Hong Sisters are very deliberately playing with a substitution theme. The Captain of the Guard 's relationship to the Princess is the exact same one as the priest-king to Diana, or CS to MW, and in the past likely Yeon Woo to MW. Protector, right hand man, maybe consort, but not necessarily lover. Captain is clearly interested in MW, while Yeon Woo has that moment in the carriage where he seems interested in the Princess. We then get that shot with MW looking feral and bloody having donned what is most likely the Princess's wedding dress.
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1 hour ago, debbsthebee said:
@brielover very interesting, thanks for sharing. so based on your theory, is it right to say that CS is not a reincarnation of MW's past love (either the captain or Yeon Woo)?
Lol still not sure - we need more data. The idea behind the ritual is that the King is killed/sacrificed and then resurrected so he's symbolically the same man but in reality a different one!
Diana was a virgin goddess, so it's possible MW didn't love either of the two men from her past enough. That might even be her failing from the past. And since then, she can't let herself love a manager because it's too painful to see them die one after the other. It's quite possible that CS is her first love or at least in love experience.
But there are two myths in particular that the Hong Sisters might be using for inspiration for MW's past if they use the Diana myth. One is Diana killing a man on impulse and out of anger for watching her bathe (trying to mess with her). Another is Diana's brother Apollo growing jealous and tricking her into shooting the man, Orion, her companion, in the head. I myself think a combination of accident, trickery by another, and MW's impulsive bad temper are very likely the lethal combo that led to her punishment.
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I thought I'd do a mythology post because the Hong Sisters are very pointedly using The Golden Bough and its description of the Diana ritual at Nemi as inspiration. The Golden Bough is a book written by James Frazier that tries to show that a particular myth and ritual of a dying but reborn king/queen, correlating to the harvest, can be found in myths everywhere in the world.
The golden bough itself was a branch from a tree that allowed heroes of the past to enter the underworld. This is the branch - variously also symbolic of a quilled pen, an arrow, or simply a branch - that cuts through the moon brooches that the Hotel del Luna employees wear.
Man Weol, whose name means full moon, who identifies herself continuously with the moon from Moon River in Breakfast at Tiffany's to a space mission to the moon to actually saying I am the moon or the moon belongs to me, is inspired by Diana, Roman goddess of the moon. Other moon goddesses go into her portrayal too but I'm saying Diana in particular because of her ritual, which I'll get to in a moment.I
Diana is always portrayed as a young virgin huntress, a tripartite goddess - of the woods and wild animals, of the moon, and of the underworld. She sometimes also absorbed the qualities of Laverna, goddess of thieves and outlaws because they operated at night. After we initially see MW in the first episode, we next see her with drawn bow - the archer, the huntress, the thief. We also see her affiliated with wild animals almost in the first ghost case - the tiger, which she returns to its home. We know she is affiliated with the underworld or afterlife, just as Diana was, a guide at the crossroads between life and death.
But the tree is where this gets really interesting. From the most ancient of days, there was a forest grove at Nemi in Italy called Diana's grove where a real life ritual took place. One tree in particular (from which the golden bough is broken) is actually a stand in for Diana herself. A priest called the King in the Woods is symbolically married to this tree, is Diana's knight and protector as well as her priest, and is killed by his replacement.
So I'm just going to enumerate how closely the Hong Sisters have tied in the hiring of Chan Sung as manager for Man Well to the replacement of a new priest-king for Diana:
1. A branch from the tree must be broken, signalling a challenger. This is what CS's father did unbeknownst to himself. Also, CS's father was a thief - his proper goddess is Diana/Laverna. Lastly, that snake that followed him - snakes are almost universally a symbol of rebirth because they shed their skins. CS's father does die and is reborn - and the ritual at Nemi is all about resurrection
2. The challenger must be a runaway slave. Now where would you find one of those in the modern age? The Hong Sisters make Man Weol actually buy CS from his dad! Not only that, but when the time comes, CS actually ran away! He was gone longer than his 20 year contractual promise. When he finally takes up his position, he could technically be called a runaway slave.
3. The challenger kills the current priest-king ( manager) in single combat. CS does not do so, but nevertheless the Hong Sisters make sure to show us that Manager Oh dies. He does not retire as he wanted to do; he has to die before CS can take up his position.
4. The new King of the Woods (manager) is technically married to the tree, which is Diana herself.
I had posted at Drama Beans a few of my suspicions about Diana and Man Weol. I also identify Ma Go quite strongly with the goddess Hecate, another many-faced goddess like Diana. But as Ma Go says in episode 6, there are more than 3 of her (she is not merely the 3 Fates), so while I believe the Hong Sisters are drawing very strongly upon Diana and Hecate for inspiration, they are also telling us , as Frazier does in The Golden Bough, that these stories have echoes and reverberations across cultures.
Still, I don't think we can go wrong by looking at the men in the goddess Diana's life to seek clues as to the roles Yeon Woo and Historical Hottie might have played in MW's past.
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2 hours ago, Meta Limesa said:
The encoder and subber for this drama worked really fast. The day haven't change yet, but I already can download and watch it with english sub..
Where?
Never mind. Found it at fast drama.
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5 hours ago, vangsweetie637 said:
Omg!! just only from that ending conversation between MW and CS at the heaven’s tunnel, we are setting ourselves up for this:
I don't want to jump to conclusions. It's his job to "see her off". That could be 50 years from now and she dies first. Or he could see her off in a month but join her shortly in the afterlife.
Did anyone think the red string of this episode was somehow poignant? Because if he is a reincarnated lover from the past, the two of them are also tied by a red string. Cutting that string has repercussions - the ghost bride and husband might never find each other again in a new life, is what I got from that.
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39 minutes ago, nuttyz said:
I read on several articles that China has lifted the ban on periodic dramas. There is hope that GMP will release the full version (without all the messy editing) and that CXX and PXR has been called to film an epilogue. I'm just not sure if these are just baseless rumours or real, anyone has any idea?
Yes, I'm with all of you. What has this drama done to me???!!! I eat, sleep, s*** and breathe in this drama...
Found a hilarious parody of the jump into the river of oblivion, happy weekend all!!
Everyone has to watch the parody! I'm still laughing. Made my day.
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In terms of a tragic love story, her death at the end is the best to get back at lcy and make us cry, but I really got attached to her as a resourceful and compassionate person and her death just seems to service his tragedy. Such a waste. My alternate ending would be him committing suicide, not her, when it dawns on him why she can never be his after he killed her loved ones.
i do wonder if the author wasn't humanizing a very real historical situation - all the princesses forced to marry their land and family conquerors and killers to legitimize the new regime - books just containing lists of their names could be published. So sad for those women.
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On 3/18/2019 at 4:49 PM, bluesunny3 said:
Gosh Damn It!
Give XF and LCY the alternate ending...it’s the one I DESERVE!
I like it too. She's a free spirit, palace life would kill her in the end. And I truly don't think she needs to die, especially not suicide. What about all those Danchi women and children that need a leader? You go Xiaofang. Besides, the romantic in me can supply my own ending if she is still alive, ie five years later a certain "tea merchant" shows up with a treaty granting the Dan chi independence and land, and he asks to join the emigrants for an adventure across the sands so off they ride. Why not? Being king or crown Prince is empty. I'm surprised more royals didn't run away from the throne rather than fight for it!
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1 hour ago, rosierosie said:
For now, it makes me laugh and giggle everytime they have flashbacks^_^.
I know the hurt will come, but for now, I'm enjoying the laughter.
I really enjoyed it up to the mid twenties in episodes but there has been something lacking for the thirties. The tension is draining away. I think it has to do with the changes they made to the male lead. He was an a**hole in the novel from the sounds of it - an obsessive Heathcliffe type - but here they've tried to keep that edge but redeem him to an extent and it doesn't quite fit. The actor is making it work as best he can but I'm afraid the character is losing his appeal and just looking like a waffling, petty-minded jerk who wants to keep and eat his cake at the same time. He doesn't appear to have any proactive plan to deal with Zhao and Gao aside from some half-assed plan to shield the CP from them by pretending not to like her. Does he love Sese or not - they are showing us someone who does have feelings for her, does have a conscience, yet is going to screw her around and in the meantime make the CP miserable. He's not exactly a mastermind - where's the smart boy from the beginning gone? So it all comes down to authorial intention here and I am unsure what the script authors intend us to think because I don't think they're quite sure either. Sexy sociopath player obsessed with the CP or compassionate victim of circumstances who loves two women?
Needed to vent a little. They've got time to redeem the script but I was a victim of SH Ryeo and Cheese in the Trap, my fave shows that both went off the rails midway through with poor script and editing choices that deeply impacted the love story tension, and I hate to say it but the signs are here for this one too.
Interesting when you realize that in all three cases it is behind the scenes pragmatic decisions that screw up the originals, all with slightly sociopathic leads. This one was supposed to be only 30 or so episodes and by dragging to 52 the tension is draining. SH Ryeo was the opposite - originally 24 episodes somebody hatchet jobbed to 20 so it didn't even make sense in places. And the original for Cheese was incomplete, so the director just made up and went in a different direction than the entire flow of the story indicated about three quarters of the way through. Writing obsessive edgy slightly sociopathic male leads is hard if you still want the readers or viewers to root for the love story. I Hope the best for this one now we're passing the stretched out middle and coming into the last ten to fifteen episodes.
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Thanks for your response. I like and agree with your analysis of Queen Yoo and Yeon Hwa following in her footsteps. I didn't pick up on the determination to "shine" but that makes a lot of sense. Neither has water maiden myth connections. They do indeed have "sun" symbolism, and this is of course the royal palace. I'm still not quite feeling the Queen Yoo and bath imagery in connection to the myths and legends. Every other water scene can be connected consistently so this one is still tugging at me. I loved your own analysis of the symbols in their own right but I think I'll reserve judgement pending later scenes as to how it fits with the mythology. Thanks again for your marvellous post!
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12 hours ago, shae said:
Knowledge is power, you don't want to give anything away to an enemy ally. YH's instigation against HS, is a gun on the table. If YH had been successful killing off HS in the plot, Queen knowing this, then it leaves YH with an open weakness in support of throne fight. Once Queen and YH would have a falling out, how quickly would it take for this info to reach Wook, in the worse possible moment? What about the other princes? They be aware of some surface jealousy but, not the amount of hate to want death. Wook knows now so it's keeping the others from ever knowing, which the truth will out someday.
Okay, I know this, but it's not what I was asking. Did the queen hatch the plan with Yeon Hwa to poison the prince, and it's only Yeon Hwa making sure Su serves the tea she doesn't know about; or did the queen not know about the poisoning at all until her maid told her?
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4 hours ago, bebebisous33 said:Yes, since Hae Soo is connected to the myth of Goryeo. This was explained by @brielover
Water is all along present in this drama and under different forms:
- bath (ritual and Yoo)
- Rain (ritual and the pleading for lady Oh)
- snow
- the lake and cottage
- the ocean
- and finally tea
Therefore I would like to analyse the different significations and uses for water.
Water symbolises purity and as such it is used for cleaning. Therefore water symbolises purification too. For example, in Christianism, holy water is used for baptism. Striking is that Queen Yoo loves to take a bath. We saw her twice taking a bath. Each time, there were many flowers so that her bath would smell good. This is no coincidence in my opinion. First, Yoo needs to take often a bath because of her misdeeds. She wants to wash off her sins in order to make herself feel better. But since she is such a bad person, water is not enough to atone her sins hence she tries to cover it with perfume. That's why she hates stink and reproached So to stink. When So went to visit her in her room, she complained about the smell of the blood. Her words and behaviour reveals that she doesn't want to get her hand dirty and doesn't want to be confronted with the results of her actions. She will always use her maids or her son Yo to dirty his hands. She can remain clean, yet she has no clear conscience in the end. Hence she bathes very often. But the way she tries to purify herself is not working therefore she is often seen drinking tea. Drinking tea can be considered as a way to clean herself in the inside. We had two scenes for that: Yoo poured tea for her or So witnessed how his mother poured the tea into her bath. Each time, it happened just before a crime would occur. In the last mentioned scene, it was interesting because by throwing away the tea, she wanted to demonstrate her strength in front of So. She acted as if she had a clear conscience and what she was doing was right. Her intention was to prove to So how strong she was. The bottom of the line is that Yoo has in the end no clear conscience. She feels dirty, yet she doesn't want to be seen as a big sinner. Therefore she wants to shine like a sun so that noone behind her glow would notice how tarnished she really is. She hates So for that matter too: the scar of 4th prince is the sign of her evilness. She can't wash it away. It is there forever. Moreover, when Wang So appeared in front of her during that night (episode 4), he popped up covered with blood so that she was confronted with her own evilness. Due to her scheme, Wang So had to kill the witnesses. No wonder, she hated him even more as she hates it being confronted by the results of her own actions. When Wang Yo visited her, he was always very clean. Then in his character description, it is written that he suffers from germaphobia. The cause of his illness comes from his mother. Since he has been her tool and toy, he was the one who had to get his hand dirty. His mother never does, like I mentioned it above.
The bath appeared also with the princes. They were all washing themselves, when Hae Soo appeared out of nowhere. For Wang So, it happened later. Yet I believe, the bath can be seen here as a new start for all the princes. From the moment they met Hae Soo there, their relationship and their behaviour started changing. Wang So couldn't hide his vulnerability , something he had hidden very well. Eun started growing up, in the sense that he started getting interested in girls (peeping, later the courting). He was still an immature boy, still a child (he still had a lot of toys!!), however he fell in love for the first time. Wang Wook started seeing life from a different perspective (more laughing, jokes, poetry aso). Wang Jung also began behaving more like a responsible person. When Hae Soo saved his life, he pledged that he would repay her with his life and promised her to become a great man. His maturity was even more visible in the last episode and I am expecting more from him now. While in the past, he used to stop Eun or Baek Ah to follow So or Hae Soo, he is now the one who starts doing something. In the episode 10, he searched for Soo worried that she would get caught. He refused to stay passive. In the rain scene (episode 11), he took the initiate to go on his knees first. He was also the one who proposed that all the princes would go to the King and ask for Hae Soo's release. So the bath represented a new start in their life. The only exception is Wang Yo... but he has never been close to hae Soo anyway, moreover he was the only one who wasn't really interested in the girl who had suddendly popped up in the bath.
As I had mentioned it above, rain is often used in this drama in order to underline a change and a significant turning point. Since rain is made of water, it can be seen as purification as well. But it is not really purification, it rather destroys the appearance and reveal your true self or identity. Let me explain: When you walk without umbrella and it is raining, rain wets your clothes, destroys your hair and your make-up so that in a sense, a new side of you is revealed. Here, it should be seen figuratively. Rain will reveal your true personality. That's why the rain in the episode 9 was a little different. Wang Wook hid from the rain and talked to his sister protected. He was fighting with his inner demon (greed, ambition), but he never really revealed it to his sister. Therefore he only put one hand outside. This gesture showed that he was still hiding his true personality (cowardice, ruthless, greedy aso). Wang So was on the other hand totally soaked... since Hae Soo had seen him as Gwanjong before the rain fell, she was first scared of him. Yet Wang So revealed a new side to her with his words: gentleness, his longing for being accepted by his father aso. This explains why Hae Soo decided to give him first the benefit of the doubt. Nonetheless, he showed her a new soft side of himself. Finally, I will talk about the rain scene from the last episode. Here, we have a turning point again: Wang Wook's mask fell off. Hae Soo realised Wang Wook's betrayal and his true personality. He was a coward who didn't try to protect her. She realised that his love for her was not strong enough, but she also got aware of his true personality: the long list of empty promises. He would get her out and he never did. He abandoned her. But her disappointment didn't last for long, as she saw Wang So by her side. Wang So was brave enough to stay by her side and ignore his father's thread. Hae Soo's eyes revealed relief and gratitude. Finally, she was able to see Wang So's true personality: he keeps his promise and protects her no matter what. He is totally hers. So the rain takes away her "love" for wang Wook, like washing off. And this is the beginning of a new one. Sure, she was attracted to him before, but she hadn't realised her feelings for him. Her love for him is already visible, when she worries more for him than for herself who is in prison and has been tortured. Moreover, the rain marks a new start for Hae Soo as well. She has lost her innocence and she will view people now more carefully.
The scene with the ocean in the background is also important because Hae Soo can breathe again, ocean is an open space and as such, it means freedom. Since Hae Soo hadn't left the palace for so long, for her seeing the ocean is like revitalising herself. She looks calmer and almost happy there. Since Hae Soo is connected to water, the sea is like a part of herself she had been missing. Wang So notices it which makes him happy. But before they went to the ocean, Hae Soo went to the lake, when she was suffering from her panick attack. So here again, she was trying to calm herself but couldn't because of wang So's sudden presence. Both always go to the lake in order to revitalise themselves, gather some strength again and think too.
Snow appears in the episode 5, when Wang Wook and Hae Soo walks together, but also when he has lady Hae on his back. Snow is a different form of water. It is not only cold, but it can also burn as well, therefore snow can inflict pain. Deep snow like here is often connected to hardship and death so that it implies that Wang Wook's love for Hae Soo and lady Hae is connected to pain and is in the end doomed. Since it was also used with lady Hae, we can also see similarities. Both women suffered due to him: abandonment, unrequired love or better said, Wang Wook could never say to his wife that he loved her. On the other hand snow is also connected to innocence and purity because of the colour white illustrating again the nature of their love (both lady Hae who was selfless and Hae Soo who idolised Wang Wook). This love will never be concrete and physical, but Wang wook will always live with regret. He tried to cover his regret by loving Hae Soo so that he could feel better for neglecting lady Hae but he failed again. He allowed his coldness to control his life again. Therefore his love was never deep enough because it was connected to coldness as well. @solelylurking
I loved this analysis of the symbolism. I was particularly impressed with your analysis of Queen Yoo and her baths. I'm wondering - could we see her affinity with water not just as washing away her crimes and never getting her hands dirty, but as a kind of "stolen" power from Lady Oh?
The founding myth at basis is the story of the child of heaven, or sky god, meeting a water maiden, the river or sea god's daughter. Their union produces an egg (read the world or a unified nation) from which springs the founder or ruler of said nation when a streak of sunlight hits the egg.
Historical legend suggests that King Taejo did meet a water maiden, a lady from the Oh clan, while she was bathing in a stream and from their union we get Crown Prince Mu. Moon Lovers does not elaborate on this legend, however, and Lady Oh is not identified as Mu's mother. What we get instead is thd story of an early love, that love denied and replacement of Queen, and a miscarriage. What we could take from this, then, is a nation founded on Taejo and Oh's union - sky god and river daughter - but left to flounder because Taejo rejects Oh and marries Queen Yoo, with her false baths and poisonous personality, who was behind the miscarriage of Oh. Taejo in fact no longer receives the mandate of heaven - the rain belongs as much to the sky as sunlight - and only his true inheritor, blessed by a water maiden, can complete the ritual. This is Su blessing So by covering his scar so he can reveal himself as sky god inheritor and bring the rain. On some subliminal level, So knows this, knows that Su really does 'belong' to him from the moment she covers his scar.
Su doesn't recognize the moment as So does mainly because she's been caught up in her own false start. Wook too has the potential to be king, and he marries someone from the same lineage as Su - the Hae Ha Jin clan, which I explained in my prior post, are descendants of the original sky god, river daughter founders , Hae Mo Su and Yuhwa. Lady Hae then as descendant of the river daughter could perhaps have bestowed the blessing on Wook, but he rejects her, and the result is miscarriage.
This is where Su comes in, on the heels of the miscarriage. She is claimed as spiritual daughter by both Lady Hae and Lady Oh, who are historically connected to the river daughter myth behind the scenes of the drama. Both have miscarried. And we shouldn't lose sight that Su was almost married off to Taejo. Su seems to have been "de"-incarnated almost as a corrective to history. Taejo first loved but abandoned his version of the water maiden, leading to the founding but eventual floundering of a unified nation. With Su, the blessing might have reasserted itself but only if she loved him. She rejects him. With Wook, the blessing might have reasserted itself and he become king to unify the nation, but he turns his back on her. His love is simply not strong enough to outweigh his connection to the family and subliminal desire for the throne.
Loving Su, through thick or thin, loyally, faithfully with strength and free will, is the same as loving Goryeo, and confers the heavenly mandate of both sky god through Taejo and water daughter through Su if she bestows her love freely and in equal measure on So. We know this relationship is likely to happen, signifying So's eventual ascent as king for 25 years, but we don't know whether there are betrayals and a miscarriage of her own for Su. Will So betray her in the end, through plots, ambitions, feelings for Yeon Hwa, etc? Or remain steadfast? It is not Taejo's reign but Wang So's that establishes the foundation and longevity of the fledgeling nation, so I suspect no matter what mishaps occur, or what betrayals shake them, the love they have will prove the test of time, hopefully in the future as well after Wang So serves out his thousand year sentence for killing the monks and whatever other cruelties he inflicts.
People might criticize this mythical take because we are not actually being shown the myth or the legends behind Hae Mo Su and Yuhwa, sky god's son and river god's daughter. But knowing the Yuhwa water maiden founding myth, knowing the water maiden legend behind Lady Oh, knowing the Lady Hae connection to the water maiden myth through her clan name, all converging in Su who is connected to water imagery time and again, has the Hae (Go) Ha Jin connection here and in the future, and is named by Lady Hae and Lady Oh as their spiritual if not literal daughter gives a lot of context to the writer's choices of symbol and theme. These myths lie under the story and we can only understand some of the writer's choices by knowing a bit about them and following the imagery. For me, they add so much depth to the story.
One scene this last episode might illustrate what I mean. Lady Oh asks Su to leave with her - to go home. Su rejects that until Lady Oh is about to die in her place. She pulls her to the cavern beneath the baths and the blocked up exit and starts pulling down stones. The baths are fed by the river/hot springs we saw in the first episode. The added texture I saw was two water maidens - water itself - yearning for home, the home of the river, away from the hellish constraints, dammed up water, dammed up love, of the palace.
And now Su's about to find herself a water slave judging by the previews. Consistent imagery again.
To return to Queen Yoo and her baths. Maybe she's another water maiden character, a corrupted one. I see her more as an Ursula figure from the Little Mermaid. Stealing Ariel's voice, stealing her man. When Taejo chooses ambition over love, he chooses a false water maiden, with short term gains but no longevity or long term stability. Lady Oh remains as his support though - notice how he staggers when she dies as if a support has been pulled out from under him. Or how he interprets her decision to die as her abandoning him.
All the blessing and support of the water maiden for a new kingdom die with Lady Oh. Her death signals the beginning of chaos, deaths and near disintegration of the kingdom. It's up to Su now.
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Could someone explain what they think was happening in one scene that's hard to understand?
In the last episode, the maid gives the poison to the other maid, telling her to make sure "that girl" meaning Su serves the tea. Yeon Hwa is standing veiled in the background and says to the maid, "Don't tell the queen about this".
My understanding then was that she meant don't tell the queen about the poisoning, and Yeon Hwa was acting on her own with the poisoning. I thought the meeting between Yeon Hwa and the Queen was most likely Yeon Hwa proposing a marriage between herself and So, and guaranteeing her family's support if So was to claim the throne, combining the two families. Once the Queen agreed, at least outwardly, Yeon Hwa on her own set about poisoning the Crown Prince so that plan could come to fruition.
However, someone pointed out to me that they thought Yeon Hwa was not referring to the poisoning when she said, "Don't tell the queen about this" but to substituting Hae Su as the court lady serving the tea. That meant that YH and the Queen were in on the poisoning together, but the Queen didn't know about Hae Su getting set up. (And why would Yeon Hwa want to hide the set up from the Queen? I'm sure it would just be an added bonus to her...)
What does everyone else think? How did you interpret what was going on?
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@40somethingahjumma I'm impressed with your analysis. I also agree with it regarding both your ocean interpretation and Su's development.
I too followed the water imagery this episode. Two were quite explicit. Last episode we had the contrast of Wook and Su beside a covered up well with So and Su on a boat in open but somewhat stagnant water. And then it rained, with So receiving the mandate of heaven. I already interpreted that in terms of water suppressed and sheltered vs water just needing rain to burst forth to carry two lovers forward. And the rain came and with it the potential of this "ship" about to sail.
This episode our river daughter takes a trip with So to the ocean and all that implies. Freedom, certainly, but also a river meeting up with an ocean, events larger than itself, choppy waters, the big scary world and a big scary love to go with it.
She also finds herself once again with Wook in the cavern and we get the one image of a single drop of water dropping into a pool with ripple effects. This to me is Su's remaining feeling for Wook, condensed to a single drop of water (compared to a deluge of rain or an ocean), but it has consequences. A smaller life and a smaller love, already diminished to a single drop, but with the potential to cause big ripples!
I'm of course interpreting these images in view of some of the events we know are going to happen, but once again I'm impressed with the water imagery the script writer and director are deliberately placing into these scenes so consistently. They add texture, depth, context, and a mythical underpinning that for me, who has been following the imagery, doubles the romance value and my understanding of the scenes.
Something from historical legend I'll just add here that kumoiwa on dramabeans translated from the Goryeosa. King Taejo too met a water maiden, Mu's mother, who was a Lady Oh in history. He found her bathing in a stream. I don't know exactly what the story behind Lady Oh is in this adaptation - I've wondered if she was Mu's mother because she too is a Lady Oh but the drama has not shown us that, only that she was at least an ex-lover and perhaps current lover of Taejo. But I don't think it a coincidence that Lady Oh seems tobe foreshadowing Su's possible fate, or that she sees herself in Su. Two women found in the water by founders of nations, Yuhwa by Hae Mo Su and Lady Oh by Taejo, and now this third kind of retrofit with Su, drowning in the water of the future, then re-emerging twice in the baths, once in front of all the princes except Mu and So, and then again for So only.
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i’m still agonised by the horrible disappointment with A Korean Odyssey.. we are 10 episodes away.. throw in a few more to help the hotel staffs with their worldly matters before heading to afterlife.. some love hate relationship between MW and CS.. we are almost left with not much time!!!
I was so creeped out!
[Drama 2019] Hotel Del Luna, 호텔 델루나
in k-dramas & movies
Posted · Edited by Jillia
Please do not quote images, thanks! :)
Thanks! Can you read what it says each guy is to MW?