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[Current Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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1 hour ago, minglan1 said:

From the brief history you shared it seems the dept was to act like a moral and ethical compass for the emperor.It was supposed to prevent him being blindsided while discharging his duties in a just manner.

It is therefore a requisite of it's officials to be able to understand political equations in the court while maintaining objectivity and providing bias free feedback.

If as a high ranking Censor official QH allows himself to become a pawn in the power play it implies failure in discharging his duties.

 

His bureau was there to prevent the emperor falling in this kind of situations which was tailor made for instability.

 

QH is a fictional character in a drama.He might be shown as part of a historical incident to lend credibility to the period timeline of the show.His justifications on doing it is different from the thoughts and reasoning of the actual censorate officials recorded in history.

 

Me mentioning the actual censorate records was a fun easter egg to bring up-- but thanks for re-emphasizing my point ;):grin::thumbsup:: in actual censorate records, the language QH's char used was applied to a different situation (the legal/systematic reformation pushed by Wang Anshi), by the same factions who argued over how to title Emperor YingZhong's birth father. I'm too lazy to translate the exact lines borrowed (people have posted them on weibo) but the lines are interesting because they illustrate the interests/role this odd-duck office that censorates played in the Chinese imperial system. 

 

The office itself does not give you any special insight to political maneuverings-- that's a matter of the official's wisdom in deciphering tricky rhetoric. QH is young, and as mentioned, too straightforward to completely recognize manipulators-- but the other integral nature to someone in this post is an unshakable moral compass despite political pressures (which QH did here, except he was too green to see that it was completely a set up. So... give him more experience with seeing the the crazy plots that people pull, he could very well become a great censorate). 

 

So let's go back to how this all went down in the first place. Minister Han brings up in Court Session 1 the topic that Emperor had kind of put off-- how to title his birth father. In that discussion, QH made the judgment call on the opposite stance based on very legitimate reasoning (which even MingLan said had stronger legitimacy than what the Emperor and Minister Han had proposed, though GTY replied that fighting for the title was Emperor's means of nudging Empress Dowager off court; i.e. getting the title was the means not the end). Here QH does that censorate job of reminding Emperor that his argument lacked legitimacy. 

 

Then (from QH's perspective), Minister Han suddenly presents a decree at Court Session 2 claiming that ED agreed to Emperor's illegitimate request, on a day that ED inexplicably was NOT in court. Requests by QH and other officials for clarification at this strange/questionable turn of events were ignored (which made it even more shady). Emperor ignored it because somehow his minister dropped what Emperor had wanted into his lap: ED has now relinquished regency (no longer attending court) and gave his birth father the requested title. Then ED calls QH to attendance and spins this story that she was forced by Minister Han to sign the decree (not written by her) under influence of alcohol. This is a highly possible strike 2 against Minister Han's integrity after the imperial seal incident. QH did the limited investigation he could do (check imperial cook records) and concludes that Minister Han did indeed trick ED-- which if true was totally immoral and he's obligated to call it out at court. Court Session 3, ED's acting, Minister Han/State Uncle Shen/Emperor's response by trying to hush-hush ED out of court only served to cement QH/conservative faction's suspicions. If QH was more savvy, he would have offered a middle-ground that (1) perhaps more time is needed to investigate the claims/find more evidence to make his suspicions legitimate at court, or (2) wait till ED feels better to revisit issue so the decree can be legitimized through her explicit approval. The correctness of the "means" is almost more important than the "end" when arguing about legitimacy-- so his censorate role obligates him to raise these issues.

 

Alas, he was too young... and jumped the gun out of frustration at what he saw as a lawless court (trick people into signing stuff, coerce/scare them into keep silent at the unfairness, blatantly trying to sweep all of this under the rug, etc.) trying to implement what he saw as an illegitimate/immoral action (giving birth father Royal Father title and shafting/denying the adopted father what was due to him... I guess they couldn't give both dads the same titles or resources wouldn't allow such a thing i.e. temple construction etc). Again this is my guess at how QH was exposed to the series of events and hence I think it's reasonable that he behaved the way he did + he did his job. ED played a really good move that literally made the entire court fall for; she used QH's ministerial duties and character (willingness to fight to the end for what is just) to the "T"-- it's hard to fault him if his duties were exactly the tools that ED used in her scheme.... :skull: She hijacked a moral issue to use it for her political maneuverings 

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30 minutes ago, sava2sava said:

While i hate the dowager i do agree with what shes doing here its incredibly disrespectful and not correct to name someone other then the past emperor as your father, in theory he was only able to become emperor because the previous emperor basically adopted him.

 

I also agree with QH acting against what the emperor is doing , where i disagree with QH is where he keeps going against GTY for personal reasons. Also hes naive and gullible and does not see the big picture. 

 

The emperor only wanted permission to publicly acknowledge his father as 'royal father'. There was already precedent for this, as he stated in his compromise to court. I mean, it wasn't something new, he's not the first non-direct descendant to inherit the throne.

 

ED had clouded the issue by making the QH and the censors take extreme positions. This was a political more than a moral fight. QH took up the silly fight that ED was tricked, rather than that the Emperor's compromise 'royal father' is wrong.

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6 hours ago, hartofseeker said:

 

Me mentioning the actual censorate records was a fun easter egg to bring up-- but thanks for re-emphasizing my point ;):grin::thumbsup:: in actual censorate records, the language QH's char used was applied to a different situation (the legal/systematic reformation pushed by Wang Anshi), by the same factions who argued over how to title Emperor YingZhong's birth father. I'm too lazy to translate the exact lines borrowed (people have posted them on weibo) but the lines are interesting because they illustrate the interests/role this odd-duck office that censorates played in the Chinese imperial system. 

 

The office itself does not give you any special insight to political maneuverings-- that's a matter of the official's wisdom in deciphering tricky rhetoric. QH is young, and as mentioned, too straightforward to completely recognize manipulators-- but the other integral nature to someone in this post is an unshakable moral compass despite political pressures (which QH did here, except he was too green to see that it was completely a set up. So... give him more experience with seeing the the crazy plots that people pull, he could very well become a great censorate). 

 

So let's go back to how this all went down in the first place. Minister Han brings up in Court Session 1 the topic that Emperor had kind of put off-- how to title his birth father. In that discussion, QH made the judgment call on the opposite stance based on very legitimate reasoning (which even MingLan said had stronger legitimacy than what the Emperor and Minister Han had proposed, though GTY replied that fighting for the title was Emperor's means of nudging Empress Dowager off court; i.e. getting the title was the means not the end). Here QH does that censorate job of reminding Emperor that his argument lacked legitimacy. 

 

Then (from QH's perspective), Minister Han suddenly presents a decree at Court Session 2 claiming that ED agreed to Emperor's illegitimate request, on a day that ED inexplicably was NOT in court. Requests by QH and other officials for clarification at this strange/questionable turn of events were ignored (which made it even more shady). Emperor ignored it because somehow his minister dropped what Emperor had wanted into his lap: ED has now relinquished regency (no longer attending court) and gave his birth father the requested title. Then ED calls QH to attendance and spins this story that she was forced by Minister Han to sign the decree (not written by her) under influence of alcohol. This is a highly possible strike 2 against Minister Han's integrity after the imperial seal incident. QH did the limited investigation he could do (check imperial cook records) and concludes that Minister Han did indeed trick ED-- which if true was totally immoral and he's obligated to call it out at court. Court Session 3, ED's acting, Minister Han/State Uncle Shen/Emperor's response by trying to hush-hush ED out of court only served to cement QH/conservative faction's suspicions. If QH was more savvy, he would have offered a middle-ground that (1) perhaps more time is needed to investigate the claims/find more evidence to make his suspicions legitimate at court, or (2) wait till ED feels better to revisit issue so the decree can be legitimized through her explicit approval. The correctness of the "means" is almost more important than the "end" when arguing about legitimacy-- so his censorate role obligates him to raise these issues.

 

Alas, he was too young... and jumped the gun out of frustration at what he saw as a lawless court (trick people into signing stuff, coerce/scare them into keep silent at the unfairness, blatantly trying to sweep all of this under the rug, etc.) trying to implement what he saw as an illegitimate/immoral action (giving birth father Royal Father title and shafting/denying the adopted father what was due to him... I guess they couldn't give both dads the same titles or resources wouldn't allow such a thing i.e. temple construction etc). Again this is my guess at how QH was exposed to the series of events and hence I think it's reasonable that he behaved the way he did + he did his job. ED played a really good move that literally made the entire court fall for; she used QH's ministerial duties and character (willingness to fight to the end for what is just) to the "T"-- it's hard to fault him if his duties were exactly the tools that ED used in her scheme.... :skull:

Unfortunately I can't read Mandarin or else I would have tried to read Chinese historians interpretation of the incident.Would be a fascinating insight into ancient China's dynasties.

 

An office would not give anyone an insight to political maneuvering.It is the official who has to understand and navigate it.

Throughout history, palace politics of different  nations has been brutal and rutheless.People who were in key positions needed to have astuteness to figure out issues.

 

I am looking at QH from the drama's angle and not mixing it up with actual historical issue as it's not central to the main story.Whatever topics QH has brought up in court have been tied to his emotions which put blinkers on better judgement.He has not been objective in evaluating issues. He brought forth Manniang's incident and refused to delve deeper in the matter brushing it off as GTY's home affair.

Here also he got carried away by ED's tears, a poor lonely widow's cry of helplessness, her childhood ties with his beloved mother.. wouldn't he still help? He listened to one side of the story and acted.He forgot how ED showed her displeasure in the jade seal incident.Where had her vulnerability vanished then?

 

He seems oblivious to the power struggle, of ED's understanding and management of court issues..He didn't think twice about the discrepancies...I am not blaming QH because this is how his character has been envisaged by the writer vis-a-vis GTY.The latter uses sharp reasoning to understand the issue was just a pretext to try and establish dominance of one over the other.

 

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You can tell gty had a rough childhood by the way he can still laugh and be silly even after got caned many times. The emperor, ed and ministers probably think he’d be at home wallowing in sorrow and pain, naaaah he is at home relaxing and acting spoiled to his wife. 

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There's a saying "Better to travel 10,000 miles, than to read 10,000 books"

 

That's probably one way to describe QH. .. 

In accordance to the law of rites, in accordance to the books, QH is technically not wrong, where the Emperor should have his legitimate father (the deceased Emperor) his Royal Father. 

His behaviour is actually consistent with his character from the very beginning.

Bound by customs, bound by books..

 

By law, he's not wrong.

By customs, by rules, by the books, his argument is justified. 

The issue with that is all these have no variables, and are idealistic, while in the world, there are simply too much variables, and it's far from ideal. 

 

Born as the only son of Duke, QH has the most privileged status. 

Born into the top of the food chain, highest rung of hierarchy.

It's his blessing, but also his curse. 

These, has essentially made him, in Granny's words, blind and deaf. 

That, this "adopted" son was not adopted under normal circumstances. He was instead, the then Emperor's last hope. 

That, the issue on how to address the biological father is all but a political maneuver on things a lot bigger. 

That, the very people he called out as fawning and crafty subjects, are the very people that put their life on the line to stop the rebellion..

 

His biggest weakness, is his inability to critically analyse, independently judge, and forming his own conclusion. 

Blinded by hatred and prejudice against GTY, he believed that ED is the victim, and GTY's side is blinding the Emperor. 

Bounded by his status and privileges, his argument on legitimacy was actually the same argument he put out during their "school" debate in earlier days..idealistic, and without merit. For all things have their place, without questioning why...

 

He could not understand that more often than not, things are not what they seem to be...

He could not understand because he has already concluded that he knows..by the books. 

That idea itself has locked him in, and limited him. 

He sees what he wants to see, and what some others want him to see...

If only he could take a step back, take the prejudice away, perhaps he could see things as they are, and not be a pawn in the game...

 

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So lovely that in the absence Gu Ting Ye, it is Grandmother to the rescue.

 

It is interesting to watch the Stepmother and Auntie Kang project their villianess. Stepmother's way is always through emothions while Auntie Kang is pure violence.

 

If I not mistaken, grandmother berated Auntie Kang's character in front of Big Mother Wang that she should be meddling in her own household such as controling her own husband who I believe has up to 9 concubines instead meddling in other household where she is not related at all by bloodline.

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4 hours ago, greenwatch08 said:

TY has a big personality & in the way he express love while ML is more reserve in that sense. They both know they love eachother but it's just there's a bit of doubt & uncertainty that frightens them, like in every relationship/marriage between two people. 

 

I agree. It feels more realistic & seeing the dramatic tension/bafflement unfold onscreen is hilarious. They both need to communicate & learn to resolve internal conflicts to be on the same pace.

@greenwatch08But they can't communicate if he threw himself out of the bedroom. Wifey did not even throw him out, he did and he is lying on the hard floor in the study and poor Xiaotao and Shituo had to be in separate parts of the house too. Shituo is like, go back to your wife already, so I can be near my girl too.

Anyhow we are now moved on as our fave girl is preggers. 

 

Episode 57-58: 

I hope the Power Couple and their cohorts will put on their thinking caps and scheme back against all the Dowager Empress' old aristocracy supporters because they are like sitting ducks being targeted one by one. The new emperor and his administration are composed of generals and warriors from the country side of Yuozhu and served fighting battles at the borders of their empire. They don't have much experience at court and knowledge of how to play politics with the old aristocrats in the capital. They need to think of the capital as a battlefield and apply fighting tactics as if they are at war.  The only people who are versed about the capital politics are TY, Madam Zhang and ML of course there is also CB and grandma. They also need to get rid of the emperor's concubine, the Gu stepmom and her son, Kang woman and think of how to battle the old aristocratic families including QH and his parents especially Princess Ping Ning. Everyone of the generals serving the emperor are being framed and under investigation. And QH is nowhere to be found. His mother is probably hiding him somewhere just like she did during the first uprising where his first wife and her family were murdered but he was nowhere to be found. (am guessing, don't really where he is or what he is up to) Does he even know how to fight? The emperor wants to discuss and resolve issues that affect the empire such as economy, business, taxes and security and the only issue that the old aristocrats supporting the ED keep wanting to resolve for months is the paternal/familial issue of the emperor. I think there is no longer a pretense of supporting the emperor. War has been declared. 

 

Momo Chang is another heroine. She is not about to have the Bai grandchild or Ting Ye and his family get harmed by the likes of Kang woman and stepmom. I love how she roared like a mother tiger protecting her cubs. 

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7 hours ago, cherubstomato said:

GTY wants MLs weakness. He wants her to surrender completely to him. But for a person like ML who has been scarred by her birth mothers death, it took a very long time to patch her heart back up. The conversation about her being afraid that she couldn’t recognize her mother anymore it’s foretelling that her wounds are almost healed... But, merely handing that patch up heart to someone especially to someone like GTY who seems to be hot and cold all the time, it’ll take a lot of courage and willingness on her part to be opened to the possibility of her heart breaking and being hurt badly once again. GTY says he wants ML to be herself, yet he doesn’t give her a room to breath to be her own woman. 

I agree. I'm glad that ML knows where to channel all her energy on important matters, not trivial things, such as the ordeal w/the concubines. That's why TY needs to approach her in a way she can openly express her current predictament w/him & not make the situation about him only.

 

She finally expressed her sentiments that night on their way home to him & it was really great since she started to open up but he made it about him. Second time when he got beaten & ML fed him, she expressed herself there, but TY made the situation about him again.

 

ML is still a new pup when it comes to love, so TY needs to sit back/listen first & not be brash about it. He only knows how to express love in a outward/

physical manner so he has yet to learn that love is not just that. ML is starting to open up which is nice to see. 

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1 hour ago, zenya22 said:

@greenwatch08But they can't communicate if he threw himself out of the bedroom. Wifey did not even throw him out, he did and he is lying on the hard floor in the study and poor Xiaotao and Shituo had to be in separate parts of the house too. Shituo is like, go back to your wife already, so I can be near my girl too.

Anyhow we are now moved on as our fave girl is preggers. 

 

That's why he needs stop putting himself in these situation & talk to her directly. Something he really has to work on.

 

Shitou & XT are indeed very cute together. 

 

I have not seen the latest two episodes yet, so I'm trying not to see the bottom part of your response. Its spoilers for these eyes.:crazy:

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Read all the comments to my earlier post 

 

William Feng cannot act, not only this drama but others too,,,, 

Ice fantasy for example,,, i guess he just a lucky guy being famous and always gets main role but comparing to other lead star he just so so. As GTY in ming lan, his emotion whether angry sad or happy always like B rating, nothing special to caption attention

 

I am a fan of chinese drama so i have seen many dramas 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Nisda said:

Read all the comments to my earlier post 

 

William Feng cannot act, not only this drama but others too,,,, 

Ice fantasy for example,,, i guess he just a lucky guy being famous and always gets main role but comparing to other lead star he just so so. As GTY in ming lan, his emotion whether angry sad or happy always like B rating, nothing special to caption attention

 

I am a fan of chinese drama so i have seen many dramas 

 

 

I cant really judge his acting as a whole since I've only only seen him in TSoML. But so far, I really do enjoy him as GTY. I'd say the acting in general in TSoML is a bit toned down so it isnt as overtly dramatized/loud as most dramas that I've watched in general but then again Ive been exposed to mostly kdramas.

 

Its definitely fine/alright if you dont like him as an actor. Everyone has their own preference. There's plenty of actors/actresses I'm not quite fond of either. 

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5 hours ago, ForgottenSoulx said:

While i hate the dowager i do agree with what shes doing here its incredibly disrespectful and not correct to name someone other then the past emperor as your father, in theory he was only able to become emperor because the previous emperor basically adopted him.

 

I also agree with QH acting against what the emperor is doing , where i disagree with QH is where he keeps going against GTY for personal reasons. Also hes naive and gullible and does not see the big picture. 

But we can also see it in a different way that if not for the Emperor, Prince Huan, GTY and his army, there would be no dowager trying to take the rule of the country from the emperor and if she did not force herself to meddle in politics wanting to rule and make the emperor her puppet the issue of the emperor wanting to honor his bio father as his legitimate father would not have been used by the emperor to force the ED to give up her role as the behind the screen ruler.

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56 minutes ago, Nisda said:

Read all the comments to my earlier post 

 

William Feng cannot act, not only this drama but others too,,,, 

Ice fantasy for example,,, i guess he just a lucky guy being famous and always gets main role but comparing to other lead star he just so so. As GTY in ming lan, his emotion whether angry sad or happy always like B rating, nothing special to caption attention

 

I am a fan of chinese drama so i have seen many dramas 

 

 

He is not just a lucky guy like u said. He worked hard to be getting main roles and to be where he is today. Most actors and actress work hard to be where they are. So you saying he's just lucky is discrediting his hard work. You're canceled.

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It is indeed sad that General Shen lost his first wife because the assasins stormed into their home and mistaken thought that lady was the current Empress and beheaded her.

 

So they wanted to repay that "debt" by having General Shen marry the younger sister so that the Zhou family can enjoy the privileges. Understand the reign of thoughts but they had conferred the Duke of Ying's daughter to marry General Shen for political alliances.

 

That is why Ming Lan had commented that General Shen household is in discord because of taking a concubine by royal decree when Empress Dowager tried to push out her maids to Ming Lan.

 

I just loved Nanny Zhang "cursing" at Auntie Kang and she felt flat on her face exactly like Big Madam Wang.

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12 minutes ago, bulubulu said:

He is not just a lucky guy like u said. He worked hard to be getting main roles and to be where he is today. Most actors and actress work hard to be where they are. So you saying he's just lucky is discrediting his hard work. You're canceled.

He won awards for his acting.. I don't think that the organizers were so blind to give him awards if he is untalented. 

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1 hour ago, Nisda said:

Read all the comments to my earlier post 

 

William Feng cannot act, not only this drama but others too,,,, 

Ice fantasy for example,,, i guess he just a lucky guy being famous and always gets main role but comparing to other lead star he just so so. As GTY in ming lan, his emotion whether angry sad or happy always like B rating, nothing special to caption attention

 

I am a fan of chinese drama so i have seen many dramas 

 

 

 

I disagree. I think Feng Shao Feng is an excellent actor and he has portrayed an excellent GTY. What you have said is very offensive to his fans here. FSF has won mainstream acting awards. Daylight is known for casting good actors and focusing on the production. I don’t think daylight will cast him if he’s as bad as what you said. 

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I am so happy that Zhang momo gave a piece of her mind to Auntie Kang (who is a great actress btw)! :star: She was on point with her insults! I don't really understand what's going on between the royal family members, so I just been skipping that discussion lol. I do appreciate that all of the veteran actresses are wonderful in their various roles. For me, this show is being carried by the ladies. 

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32 minutes ago, crackaddict said:

I am so happy that Zhang momo gave a piece of her mind to Auntie Kang (who is a great actress btw)! :star: She was on point with her insults! I don't really understand what's going on between the royal family members, so I just been skipping that discussion lol. I do appreciate that all of the veteran actresses are wonderful in their various roles. For me, this show is being carried by the ladies. 

Yep. Most of the best/engaging characters in this show are the women. Its definitely more female-centric then most dramas I've watched & that's what I like. I love the female relationship/friendship & interaction. Even the most villainous characters I love to hate/irks me(in a good way)are women.

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Gu Ting Ye has been after his wife to openly show her emotions and not curb them to be reasonable and pleasing.

When ML is slowly trying to be comfortable with doing what he wants pat comes the suggestion to lie low and avoid trouble makers.

He only wants her to be the ferocious when he is around to balance the aftereffects.I guess he has an inkling of how rutheless she can be if people rub her the wrong way beyond a point.

 

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18 minutes ago, minglan1 said:

Gu Ting Ye has been after his wife to openly show her emotions and not curb them to be reasonable and pleasing.

When ML is slowly trying to be comfortable with doing what he wants pat comes the suggestion to lie low and avoid trouble makers.

He only wants her to be the ferocious when he is around to balance the aftereffects.I guess he has an inkling of how rutheless she can be if people rub her the wrong way beyond a point.

 

How happy he was when ml showed jealousy and praised her for being unvirtous wife. :lol:

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