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[Current Mainland Chinese Drama 2018] The Story of Ming Lan 庶女明兰传 / 知否?知否?应是绿肥红瘦

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4 minutes ago, hello210 said:

:lol: Did we finally get to see Huolan’s husband? Cause I think that’s all the in-laws at the door (blocking GTY, wedding tradition), 6th Liang, scholar, and was thinking the one in the middle is the illusive older Sheng son-in-law. We only saw his older brother in the beginning. I double checked to make sure it wasn’t CF. :D 

Spoiler

The guy on the right? I think that was rulan's intended. 

 

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10 minutes ago, leeza77 said:
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The guy on the right? I think that was rulan's intended. 

 

Spoiler

 

The one in the middle, in front of 6th Liang and the scholar. Each of them talked and I thought he said woh...something..ta jie. Was too fast for me to catch. But they’re in order of the 3 older sisters in front of the door.

 

Liang Han       Scholar

(Molan)              (Rulan)

            2nd Yuan??

              (Huolan)??

 

 

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2 minutes ago, hello210 said:
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The one in the middle, in front of 6th Liang and the scholar. Each of them talked and I thought he said woh...something..ta jie. Was too fast for me to catch. But they’re in order of the 3 older sisters in front of the door.

 

Liang Han       Scholar

(Molan)              (Rulan)

            2nd Yuan??

              (Huolan)??

 

 

He looked like Cheng Feng to me. Is it not him?

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8 minutes ago, darkphoenix123 said:

He looked like Cheng Feng to me. Is it not him?

I looked a few times and it wasn’t CF. I thought maybe it was older son-in-law since he was with the other two :D Was curious if they cast him the same way they did Rulan’s man.

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4 hours ago, linhlinh111 said:

One thing I'm wondering is Why GTY had to scheme to get ML in the drama? He had to do it in the book cuz no one was on his side and ML barely knew him, but in the drama, he and ML had many interactions with each other. He was in a position where Sheng family would be happy marrying ML off to him. The only obstacle may be Grandma but if ML told her how he had helped her several time she would have accepted him. Besides, ML actually was fond of him this time. Why couldn't he just ask for ML's hand directly so that she could be proud and high. Instead everybody is thinking ML was just a replacement for Rulan. Why didn't he think that honesty and sincerity would work? He was in a very advantageous position yet he still had to use such underhanded method? And he wasn't being honest with ML either. He only told her when everything was already done. What? He didn't think that ML would accept him? It never crossed his mind that maybe it was against her will? At least he could have hinted to her what he was gonna do beforehand.

 

The odds were high that he would be rejected by Grandma. ML was oblivious to his feelings and very filial and she would have obeyed her grandma. He wanted ML badly and wasn't willing to risk failure.The scheming and manipulations put ML in a corner and guaranteed success.

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Silent lurker here :) I must say, I am loving this drama! I love the bonding that is being shown between ML and RL. The love between GMa and ML and especially the tenderness between GTY and ML.  Loving every moment.  I was grinning like a Cheshire cat watching the preview when ML was dozing off.:relaxed: LOL!!! That's they way a honeymoon is supposed to be!! GOOD FOR YOU GTY!!!

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Not sure if the topic of the name of the show has come up yet on this thread (I only started following around page 70).

 

The full name of the show  知否知否应是绿肥红瘦 Zhi Fou Zhi Fou Ying Shi Lv Fei Hong Shou is a line from a poem by a famous Chinese female poet called Li Qing Zhao.

 

Dramawiki translates the line as Don’t you know? The green should be plump and the red lean. I saw from another site that this line refers to the trees that should be losing it's flowers and becoming fully green or changing of the season from spring to summer.  But what does that mean in relations to the show? Is the translation wrong?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, deslynn88 said:

Not sure if the topic of the name of the show has come up yet on this thread (I only started following around page 70).

 

The full name of the show  知否知否应是绿肥红瘦 Zhi Fou Zhi Fou Ying Shi Lv Fei Hong Shou is a line from a poem by a famous Chinese female poet called Li Qing Zhao.

 

Dramawiki translates the line as Don’t you know? The green should be plump and the red lean. I saw from another site that this line refers to the trees that should be losing it's flowers and becoming fully green or changing of the season from spring to summer.  But what does that mean in relations to the show? Is the translation wrong?

 

 

There was a YouTube video posted earlier that goes over the poem and it’s title and how it fits into the novel/drama. Basically that the lines describes the domestic life of women during that time. 

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GUYS!   GUYS!   GUYS!   

 

   *** --- ***  NEWS FLASH!   *** --- *** 

 

                It's a DRAMA!  

 

These characters do not exist.  

 

If someone likes QH over GTY,    OH WELL.  SO WHAT?  

If someone thinks GTY's scheming and plotting is underhanded, SO WHAT? 

If someone thinks QH is weak and whiny, SO WHAT?  

 

WHAT is the point of debating whether one fictional character's love is more true than another fictional character's?   

 

These are only fictional characters - they do not exist - and we are all entitled to our own opinions and interpretations.   

 

Let's share our perceptions to enhance our viewing experience without judgement.  

 

This is supposed to be FUN!  

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9 minutes ago, watchumlots said:

GUYS!   GUYS!   GUYS!   

 

   *** --- ***  NEWS FLASH!   *** --- *** 

 

                It's a DRAMA!  

 

These characters do not exist.  

 

If someone likes QH over GTY,    OH WELL.  SO WHAT?  

If someone thinks GTY's scheming and plotting is underhanded, SO WHAT? 

If someone thinks QH is weak and whiny, SO WHAT?  

 

WHAT is the point of debating whether one fictional character's love is more true than another fictional character's?   

 

These are only fictional characters - they do not exist - and we are all entitled to our own opinions and interpretations.   

 

Let's share our perceptions to enhance our viewing experience without judgement.  

 

This is supposed to be FUN!  

Yes, yes, agreed but i thought the debate was the FUN part and it gave us an idea how others view the characters just as long as we don't trade insults or be rude.. 

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20 minutes ago, hello210 said:

There was a YouTube video posted earlier that goes over the poem and it’s title and how it fits into the novel/drama. Basically that the lines describes the domestic life of women during that time. 

 

Ah okay thanks.  I'll look for that video.  Maybe I need to read the whole poem to understand the meaning better.

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Just saw the polo episode. Molan looked more 'sad' than jealous. Her eyes misted over (more like regret) then she picked up that nut...what was that about?

 

I wanted some high school revenge in ya face richard simmons slappin' but then Molan's eyes just deflated me.

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During the wedding scene, when GTY was trying to enter the Sheng house to pick up his bride, his brothers in law were teasing him and not letting him in until he came up with a poem.

 

Can someone translate the poem?  I'm curious because ML choked on her wine when she heard it and muttered, "how did he know?"

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22 hours ago, Golden Flower said:

@tomo74 @gleek49 @m0us3y @hello210 @leeza77

After watching TV epi 40 and complete conversation of GTY and QH, QH did not tell GTY to give up ML because he thinks that GTY doesn’t deserve ML due to his past behavior. Yes, QH sort of implied that to Xiaotao when he said that he wants ML to have good marriage partner during his visit to ML’s house to meet grandma after conversation with GTY. QH didn’t realize that GTY has feelings for ML and planned to marry her till the end of conversation when GTY admitted it. In the beginning, he was trying to ask GTY to back off as he thought that GTY is just marrying ML because he was late in asking for Roulan and just to get married. Of course, he also thought that GTY wouldn’t aim for ML knowing their love history. QH also did not realize ML’s marriage prospect with Dr. He was also because he hid himself at home focusing on his study. 

GTY also lied to QH (1) not knowing QH’s plan to propose marriage to ML again (2) ML and grandma already agreed to his marriage proposal. Of course, He didn’t tell QH about his grand scheme involving RL and imperial couples. After meeting with ML at HL’s house, he asked Shitou whether the exam results came out today and that they should prepare to meet another person, indicating he already knew QH is going to come look for him. (I’m NOT saying GTY is evil for lying to QH as they’re love rival after all.) I’m just saying that he also calculated QH and basically prevented QH from having opportunity to propose again to ML though they’re friends. I’m just not fond of GTY’s attitude of blaming QH not accepting his help to fight off YW’s family power and pretending he was sincere in helping him to be with ML that time while he was already planning to marry ML since he rescued her from river bandits, way before QH’s family was threatened by Yong Wang. 

I do not think that QH was wrong in being angry at GTY or asking GTY to give up based on his knowledge of how GTY’s marriage proposal went for ML (being late for RL then went for ML).

I’m not commenting about things between QH and ML or whether QH deserves ML or whether ML should accept QH.

I’m just saying as friends, GTY was never honest or transparent of his feelings and plans to marry ML towards QH. So, it is normal that QH being angry at him and not believing ML would want to marry GTY. The truth is at the end of their conversation, ML still hasn’t agreed to marry GTY but GTY tried to make QH think that she and grandma already agreed to the marriage.

 

I am not there yet or viewed episode 40 as I am following the drama on VIKI however this whole QH/GTY/ML marriage triangle discussion has been a hot topic in this thread. If I may give my POV regarding the post above. It seems to me that because QH hid himself in his room studying was uninformed of the world around him, so he knows less but assumes much. GTY at this point has put a plan to marry ML and yes he schemed and maneuvered to expose the weakness of the rival and won. Whether in the conversation with QH, GTY lied or not is a moot point but QH still "thinking" that he, QH,  is now free to marry ML is valid as far as he is concerned, because he is still in love with ML. However, QH is naive to think that he was still considered an "eligible" marriage candidate for ML because he is no longer in the running in the eyes of the Sheng family after the first propasal debacle which was created by QH family. QH mom, the princess is hiding in shame embroidering in her house because people of nobility whom she once associated with, are avoiding her and her family because they think she is crazy and the imperial connection or protection from the new emperor possibly severed and QH was made aware of this by his father. QH mom proposing marriage to the Shengs again is comparable to the Countess mother of Liang 6th son, who wanted ML as a daughter in law to be used as a spear to kill the gossip. So, in the eyes of the Shengs, the princess proposal is akin to using ML as a spear. QH mom's marriage proposal was already doomed to rejection especially when the mother made it clear the first time she was supposed to "propose", that ML was only to be considered as "mei mei" and caused family humiliation (whether the princess was aware or not of what her son told ML).

 

But it was also reasonable for QH in his point of view, to appeal to GTY to back off thinking at that time that GTY had "no feelings" for ML and GTY first proposed to RL. But even if GTY did not calculate QH and GTY was not in the picture, Dr. He was, and grandma favored Dr. He heavily. Yes, QH did not know that but it would not have mattered whether he knew or not because he would still have proposed and been rejected. I don't see GTY preventing QH from proposing, there was no wall created by GTY or anyone else to block or prevent QH from doing so. QH created that wall himself. It has also been many years 3 to 5 at least, after his failed courtship and marriage proposal to ML and many disastrous events that happened such as war, attempted coup, murders of rivals for the throne etc and new ruling era and ML's family had gone through hardships, scandals and death. Life would have changed for ML and that her mindviews, feelings and environment changing also would have influenced ML and her family's outlook on QH proposal. It is again callow of QH not to think about that. 

 

GTY had no plans of marrying ML when he rescued her from the river as the only thing on his mind was to find his son. Rather he started seeing ML differently as not the 8 year old he had rescued, but a grown up mature and level headed girl. She gave him something to mull over. He was a vagabond roaming around China with a young daughter in tow, penniless with no prospects. What she said to him at the seaport was like a light bulb suddenly switched on. The next time they met, was when he rescued her from bandits at the funeral. I think this is where he was seeing the acuteness of ML's mind and where his interest in ML as a woman may have been inspired. However, ML pointed out that he was still a foot soldier and that statement may have renewed whatever lost ambition GTY had and reminded him of his duty to family. When he went back to the capital, he took the job of an officer in General Wei's army. Before he left he became a liason for QH/ML breakup. GTY had a talk with QH to size up his determination to marry ML and to see if he would be able to protect ML. He like everyone else was already aware of the gossip being spread about QH/ML and also warned ML when he compared QH/ML to the emperor who could not protect her concubine who committed suicide that QH may not be able to protect her. At that time, GTY was not a good prospect for a husband either compared to when his father was alive and GTY knew that, he had self awareness at least. QH has deep connections to the imperial family, has status power and wealth while GTY is a soldier, thrown out of his family home, and is on his way to war and did not know if he will survive the war or not. GTY offering help to QH during that talk was coming from a man's specifically a warrior's point of view/mindset or brain. Fight or get defeated. Whether it was right in the eyes of the other characters especially QH or not, that is how GTY, warrior man,  sized up the gall or courage of a man. Young, greenhorn, sweet and in love QH gave himself away unknowingly that he was going to be a passive lover. Friendship does not even count anymore, as years have passed. GTY was away fighting rebels in the south, then was involved in the imperial conflict to the throne, while QH got married, his royal relatives in chaos, murders of his imperial relatives and families, wife in laws and a new emperor enthroned and his family dishonored and he lost touch with ML. He is angry with GTY for proposing to QH because they are friends? He got married no matter how it happened, ML returned the dolls, they broke up and it has been years since. If GTY moved in when QH and ML were first courting and in love, then yes, he should be angry. But after he got married, years past and he lost touch with ML and friends, expecting GTY not to fall in love and propose to ML is uncomprehensible. Grandma needs to give QH the book on strategems of war. Come on, someone write this guy some cohones and maturity.... someone??? 

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I love the wedding part.  This is probably one of my favourite episode.  Grandma cared for her so much.  She gave a lot of dowry :) I am happy to see more of Hualan too.  The sctress who played this role is pretty.  The new Empress too.  

 

Did you all see the stepmom's face when the Empress gave GTY her jade hairpin?  Her jaw literally dropped in disbelief :joy::joy::joy:

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5 hours ago, linhlinh111 said:

That was I was trying to say. There is no guarantee ML would chose him. If she doesn't want to marry him then it is wrong to force her. Whichever era it is, this is still true. He has no rights to decide what's best for her. His plan was not about her, it was about him getting her. He didn't put her first, he was putting himself first. Had he ever counted in her feelings and her choice (and also her Grandma's)? No, he wanted her, so he just had to have her.

 

I'm not against underhand tactics. I understand that scheming is necessary at some point, but it doesn't mean that it is right. ML is a scheming, manipulative woman, but she understands this, while GTY doesn't. ML actually feels guilty and sad when she has to use people to achieve her goals. I just wanna show anyone who support his method that, if he was okay with being manipulative against ML, then both he and their marriage have issues.

 

I never said GTY was a gentleman, and I also understand his tragedies and experiences in the past which lead to his result-focused methods. I sympathize with him and I'm also excited to see him on his way of improving himself, seeing ML and GTY bonding after marriage and resolve their issues. I just don't know why many don't realize that his method and his current way of thinking have problems?

Lol. I think the plan was GTY trying to get ML to marry him. In love, I don’t think there was ever such a thing call fairness. GTY schemed and he eventually got the woman he loves.  I think you are putting all the characters on a very high morale pedestal. This is a show which reflects reality of the world and like the real world, humans are inveitably flawed. That is why this show portrays character growth in GTY and also in QH. 

 

I don’t deny that the method he employed was flawed but at least he did it in a way that protects ML and he has calculated to Ensure no damage was done. When it comes to ML, he always sought to protect her and her reputation. Thus I honestly don’t think he would have forced ML to marry him if she’s was determined not to marry him.

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1 hour ago, mooose said:

Just saw the polo episode. Molan looked more 'sad' than jealous. Her eyes misted over (more like regret) then she picked up that nut...what was that about?

 

I wanted some high school revenge in ya face richard simmons slappin' but then Molan's eyes just deflated me.

The solitary nut was her companion of woe.It felt her anger,regret,despair to crack maybe.... while she held herself up.

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Regarding QH vs GTY, I feel there are 2 things in discussion here. QH and GTY's character and personality, and the relationship with ML. They are separate, yet intertwined. That complicated the situation. Add in bias by each of us, we get all the differences in opinions, from our own perspectives. 

 

Personally, I'm not a fan of QH, but I think I can see where @Golden Flower and @tomo74 are both coming from...

 

@Arieslazarel summed it up quite nicely. 

As a person, if we look at their characters independently of the consequences of their action, and circumstances, QH as a person, is better. He's filial, kind, honest, rich, honourable, loyal. 

GTY is cunning, a bit of a rascal/scoundrel, manipulative, but responsible, and not that bad a person, but compared to QH, is much more of a flawed character. 

 

But the reason I am so against QH, and cheered for GTY is probably because their personalities and characters are shown in their actions and as a direct result, impacting their relationship with ML. 

That despite his best efforts, all the sufferings, QH's actions hurt ML. And I personally felt that ML had to pay for the heavy price for QH's actions, which I didn't like. 

He loves ML, and he believes ML loves him too, so naturally, they should be together. That's his math. 

But in it all, he has never tried to stand in her shoes, to understand her, to see from her perspectives, or see how much pain and humiliation he caused her, intentional or not. 

 

And while GTY lied to multiple people, manipulated some, scam others, there's one thing he didn't do- hurt ML. 

Every step that he made, he considered the impact it might have on ML and her reputation first. 

If GTY really confessed that he likes ML since the water bandit incident and wanted to make her his wife since (clearly I haven't watch), I wouldn't disagree that he may not have been sincere in helping QH, but rather testing him and wanting to see how far QH would go for ML. 

But I personally didnt feel that GTY was trying to discourage ML with the Emperor Ming/ Yang Gui Fei comparison as I felt he was being honest about their situation to her then. 

Every interaction GTY had with ML, the conversation felt sincere, advice given with best interest of the other at heart. 

Some were saying that GTY should have told ML his plan and get her agreement to her hand of marriage. With a 21st century lens, I'd agree. 

But I could see why he wouldn't do it. Because if she did agree, and he failed, he would end up hurting her, giving her hopes and not deliver. 

As much as his plan was fail proof, as ML said in recent episode "human plan, God decides"..

In his case, heaven was on his side.

 

If we look at only characteristics of them, QH is definitely more ideal. If we only look at the intentions, the means but not the end, QH has been more upright as a person. But if we look at the end, all he ever did was damage to ML. 

And while some of GTY actions were shady, his actions rouge, his end game was getting ML, without hurting her if he fails. 

Im not saying that the end justifies the means, but I am saying that the characteristics of a person drives their actions, and those actions have consequences. And they all matter. 

 

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I think what we don't do in the is forum is watch the drama while concentratting6more on the dialouges. The dialogue are so connected that, if said in one episode, it can be used to explain the other episodes. So I will share an excerpt of ep 37 where they showed us how the grandma will not tolerate any scumbag, whether the person was good like Dr He, or the person truly loves her like QH, and especially one that has a bad reputation already like GTY, to marry her daughter 

So in episode 37,when ML and grandma went to Dr He's house to resolve the issue about Cao cousin, and she saw how they were acting as if ML is there to beg them, even though He has resolved to not marry Cao cousin, the Cao cousin mother was being disrespectful and grandma immediately said ML is an 'outsider' so she shouldn't interfere in their family matters 

So they left, He was now telling his grandmother that he has already decided not to marry Cao cousin but the grandmother said, there is nothing to change her decision and she said and I quote

 

'I have no way to save it (their marriage) anymore

In their Sheng family, it's always been that old sister of mine making decisions 

Minglan is her doted granddaughter 

If she refuses to marry her off to you, even if you beg His majesty, it won't wwork'

 

So I think this dialogue explains why GTY still have to scheme even after talking to the emperor about the marriage, he just used, the emperor's name to make sure they don't think otherwise about giving him a Sheng daughter to marry, 

Well he explained all these to ML when she asked him why couldn't he have just asked for her hand directly instead of going round in ep 38..

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