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[Debate] Do you agree transgenders should be allowed to join the Miss Universe pageant?

lualmlualm I remember Eonji hun's ipod touchPosts: 7,394Friend of Soompi

IDOL

edited April 2012 in general discussion
A beauty pageant has booted a contestant out the competition after discovering the buxom blonde was born a boy.
The Miss Universe Canada organizers threw out Jenna Talackova when they found out she had undergone surgery to become a woman.
The transgendered contestant had already successfully reached the finals in the Miss Vancouver pageant before she was banned from continuing in the competition.
Although the pageant organizers described Talackova as a ‘real girl’ they disqualified her arguing that the rules state that each contestant must be a ‘naturally born female.’
According to Denis Davila, the national director of Miss Universe Canada, Talackova claimed on her registration form she was born a female.
But becoming suspicious Davila confronted the 23-year-old about her sex change and the contestant admitted she was actually born a male.
Despite her pleas to stay in the pageant her confession meant that she was pulled from the contest that same day.
'She feels like a real girl and she is a real girl. She didn’t expect people to question it,' Davila told thestar.com.
'She was hoping we could put her back in the competition, but the rules are very clear and there’s no way we can go back on it.'


texts taken from this link


A new development has taken place a few days after:

“For more than two weeks, the Miss Universe Organization and Mr. Trump made it clear to GLAAD that they were open to making a policy change to include women who are transgender,” said GLAAD spokesperson Herndon Graddick. “We appreciate that he and his team responded swiftly and appropriately. The Miss Universe Organization today follows institutions that have taken a stand against discrimination of transgender women including the Olympics, NCAA, the Girl Scouts of America and The CW’s America’s Next Top Model. Jenna and all of the LGBT advocates who have called for this change and spoken out in support of transgender women are to be commended. At a time when transgender people are still routinely denied equal opportunities in housing, employment and medical care, today’s decision is in line with the growing levels of public support for transgender people across the country.”



texts taken from this link



If you can have it your way, will you allow transgenders to join Miss Universe or not? And why?
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Replies

  • kwon-gdkwon-gd Posts: 369Member
    I.DO.NOT.AGREE. 

    ;AAA; To be fair why not also make Transgenders Universe? 
    You're so strange,so I find you perplexing and intriguing 
  • jazza_625jazza_625 I ? ONew ??? EXO PlanetPosts: 484Member
    edited April 2012
    I do not agree with this.

    This is unfair for those who are natural born woman.
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  • -Mikki--Mikki- TorontoPosts: 323Member

    IDOL

    How is it unfair to a woman?! I agree whole heartedly that the rules should change and let transgendered women into the pagent... They are equally women just as naturally born women are. They should have the same rights and oppiritunities as everyone else! And there is a transgender pagent but it's not as big with no where near the same great oppiritunities as this/ not put on regularly since there isn't enough funding. It's not fair that women born or made are not allowed in.
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  • LoliTzAlLoliTzAl somewherePosts: 91Member

    ROOKIE

    Not going to lie but even though mrs Canada looks like a girl, a really beautiful one. She was not born naturaly a woman. She was scientifically modified to become a woman. Which can give her an advantage over the others contestant. Its like how Sport champions are not allowed to use Steroids or other pill that makes them stronger, They are using the scientific technologies to boost up their chances of winning
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  • poptart_of_doompoptart_of_doom Posts: 6Member
    the only reason i would agree with transgender people being allowed to compete is are strictly enforced and specified rules against plastic/cosmetic surgery. meaning that contestants are only allowed no more than two plainly listed elective cosmetic alterations before being disqualified. if not it's pure discrimination.

    ALL of those women have altered themselves in some shape or form and use tricks to look the way they do. this isn't them strutting around in their bare face with no make up and parading scans of their uterus and vagina for a high score. so it makes no sense to kick transgender contestants out for not being born a woman as if her surgeries are any different than the boob, nose, chin, cheek implant, jaw shaving, botox, injections, padding, body sculpting, laser resurfacing, hair removal, hair extensions, make up, wardrobe tricks etc that all the other "natural born women" have had done is ridiculous.

    there are only two surgeries that mtf contestants can have that cis-gender contestants can't. neither of which would give them an edge. because last i checked adam's apple shaving and genital reassignment are not areas of the body that are not up for judgement and thus them being altered is a one up on the competition. there are some drag queens who can even tuck and pad so well that reassignment can be argued isn't an issue for aesthetically presenting as female. not to mention the mtf transgender people whose bodies need nothing more than the reassignment to be able to "pass" as female.

    like those who are able to grow enough fatty tissue to gain breasts with hormones, which would've only put them at LEVEL playing field with the female contestants, if they choose to get breast implants is up to them and many of the "natural born" female contestants have as well so... no edge there. if they were naturally slender and "feminine" in their body structure beforehand simply corseting their waist for a extended period of time would be enough to sculpt it into a more obviously "womanly" shape of an hourglass figure much like Dita Von Tesse has done so no edge there. for some the transition from male to female isn't some long surgery filled process in order to be able to pass. some only need the actual reassignment surgery to be able to fully pass as female even when in a skimpy bikini with no other help than a hormone pill that again only, at best, brings them to a level playing field with their cis-gender competitors as it really only slows hair growth on the body and gives them the extra ability to retain the fatty tissue on their bodies in places women are born with it (breasts. hips, etc) .

    most, if not all, of the contestants have a science based work out plan to mold and reshape their bodies complete with diet to cheat close to the pagent days like starving themselves to completely flush excess water. or they use science by getting silicone shots into their feet so that they can wear high heels for hours on end to make their legs look better, or botox into their armpits so they don't sweat, or getting their gums cut back so their smile looks better, etc the list goes on.

    if you think that these women who were born as such are any less created by "science" for the edge to win than a mtf contestant would be... then i wonder what it's like to be that naive.
  • HERMITHERMIT Posts: 10,097Friend of Soompi

    EXALTED ONE

    edited April 2012
    The way I look at it, the MIss Universe Pageant does not have to change their rules.  I can see the point of putting forth their rules and actually defining the boundaries as to what kind of contestants that get to participate.  It is their pageant to run and it's not just some free-for-all.  In the case of Jenna Talackova, the rule is stated plain as day and she simply lied on her registration form.  I have no problems with her disqualification because she broke an existing rule.
    Now, if this was a rule that was just made up on the spot, or was a case of not exactly providing full disclosure in the rule books (ie. implied), then I can see this specific incident being a problem.  But as reported, the rule specifically states, "naturally born female" - and as such all contestants must abide by that rule.

    Now as to whether the Miss Universe pageant should change the rule, my thinking is NOT to - but based more on philosophical reasons as it pertains to fair competition.  I think that by allowing transgenders into the competition, you essentially open up a whole new can of worms as to the interpretation of what is permissible in the name of "competitive advantage".  Naturally born women make do, more or less, on their God-given talents.  Sure, you have the make-up, the lipo, the breast implants, etc, but relatively speaking they are competing on the merits of what nature has provided them.  But on the other hand, when it comes to a transgendered person, you're dealing with something relatively manufactured, something that can essentially be molded in any way that this person would like it to, and to a distinct advantage.  At this point, I just want to emphasize that when this gets introduced into the fray of pageant competition, my concern here is more along the lines of philosophical implications of competition and not necessarily the discriminatory aspects of how the pageant is run.  Because you introduce transgendered contestants into the competition, there could ostensibly be inserted a "manufactured emphasis" into the approach of competition.  So if a contestant who's parts are essentially "man-made", then the focus to regain the competitive advantage for naturally-born female contestants is to also resort to man-made and artificial means to make themselves more appealing.  As a result, you can potentially end up with a pageant where it's whoever has the best boob job, the best liposuction done, the best botox and collagen work, etc. that becomes the name of the game.  And when that happens, then I can see philosophically how the Miss Universe Pageant ends up being just one big mockery unto itself.  The focus could devolve precisely on just how good the woman looks and not simply on the contestant being the "best woman that she could be", whether it be transgendered or female.  I hope I was able to make my delineation here clear.

    With that said, I concede that it is a delicate issue.  I actually don't have anything against transgendered people competing and as it were, the Miss Universe pageant has rescinded that particular restriction from their regulations after working closely with GLAAD and have allowed Talackova back into the competition.
    But like I said, it is their pageant to run, so if they saw fit to change the rules then I'm fine with that as well.  I think it will be interesting to see how females and transgenders fare against each other in and open competition.  But to be honest, I have a genuine fear that with the changes, the Miss Universe Pageant will not be what it used to be from both ends of the spectrum:  the contestants will have a different set of pressures on how to approach/consider their competition, the spectators will probably focus more on the looks and perhaps play the "guess the possible transgender" game, and the judges will have the added element on how to properly judge despite whatever suspicions they might have (whether real or perceived).

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    On a tangential side note, we all know that Donald Trump runs the Miss Universe Organization and he surely was instrumental in making the policy change to allow transgenders into the pageant and lifting the ban on Jenna Talackova so that she can compete in this year's competition.  But I can't help but wonder if Trump's stance on the issue was somewhat softened by the observation that Talackova almost resembles his own daughter, Ivanka Trump:

    jenna-talackova1-300x237.jpg  22712.jpeg

    Kind of interesting, don't you think?

  • kyosh02kyosh02 Posts: 3New Member
    I disagree with the said rule change. Miss Universe was made to honor the true essence of being a woman. HE rightfully doesn't belong there for HE is not a woman.

    As far as I am concerned, your chromosomes are the real and factual definition whether you are a man or a woman. It cannot be altered and it is subject neither to debate nor to opinions. HE, without a doubt, possess XY chromosomes......... unless HE can actually prove that HE was born as an XX male. Again this fact is non-debatable.

    I believe every matter deserves its own venue or forum to be a part of and I respectfully say that Ms Universe is not in anyway a venue for transgenders and gays. If they really want to prove their beauty, then they can rightfully make their own pageant which they can call Ms Universe Transgender. There, they can rightfully join without any discrimination.


    On another note, I heard a homosexual said something like this: "I don't agree with allowing 'her' to join the Ms Universe. If they do such thing, imagine when the time comes that real women would want to join Ms Gay every time they need money. I wouldn't want such thing to happen."
  • MannosukeMannosuke Posts: 12,626Member

    SUPERSTAR

    edited April 2012
    It's a beauty pageant for women. I came to look at women.
    I don't want to see men running around the show. Heck even the camera guy should be replaced with a woman.

    It is unfair to men that just want to see women.
  • monkeyinabarrelmonkeyinabarrel Posts: 1,371Member
    edited April 2012
    -Mikki- wrote on 15 April 2012 - 11:03 AM:

    How is it unfair to a woman?! I agree whole heartedly that the rules should change and let transgendered women into the pagent... They are equally women just as naturally born women are. They should have the same rights and oppiritunities as everyone else! And there is a transgender pagent but it's not as big with no where near the same great oppiritunities as this/ not put on regularly since there isn't enough funding. It's not fair that women born or made are not allowed in.

    A. they're a guy (lol edit: I'm referring to why people think it's unfair, not that the contestant was man. Technically most men are half women xD)
    B. Many transgender receive cosmetic surgery on top of the required surgery down there. Male noses are wider than females (even andrejic the androgynous model, he has to contour is nose with make up) so they get nose jobs to get a delicate nose. many probably get their jaws shaved, boob jobs, chin shaved I could go on but just surgery to make them more feminine. (think about it if you're getting all these surgeries would you choose an average looking face or have a perfected face? I think miss universe has a no plastic surgery rule so that's why it's unfair. )
  • GreenTeandSASHIMIGreenTeandSASHIMI Posts: 267Member

    IDOL

    edited April 2012
    oh my god no!

    He was born a man and the pageant is for women and people came to look at women born women, not men who changed into a woman.. obviously you're not gonna get any good attention i mean i'm not even homophobic or anything but i think that the homosexuals/transgenders/bisexuals would be going TOO far to participate in this pageants

    Think of it this way, HOW WOULD YOU FEEL LOOKING AT A VICTORIA'S SECRET MODEL KNOWING THAT HE'S REALLY GUY WEARING BRAS AND PANTIES. <_<
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  • MannosukeMannosuke Posts: 12,626Member

    SUPERSTAR

    edited April 2012
    snaiied wrote on 15 April 2012 - 09:09 PM:

    Think of it this way, HOW WOULD YOU FEEL LOOKING AT A VICTORIA'S SECRET MODEL KNOWING THAT HE'S REALLY GUY WEARING BRAS AND PANTIES. <_<


    What if the model looked exactly like a woman and you'd only know she was a dude if you showed medical records.
  • inxomniainxomnia FunkytownnPosts: 1,086Member

    IDOL

    Frankly, I thought it was a bit foolish of Donald Trump to re-accept her into the pageant, though don't know whether that would even affect the outcome.

    I think it is unfair, so to speak, because the rule strictly stated "naturally born females" and it was a case of her being a transgender (as opposed to say a hermaphrodite where you can kind of argue that she did have female bits and whatnot). And that she lied about it. I think if she was upfront about being a transgender it would never have gotten to the stage where she would have been allowed into the pageant to start off with. I guess, you can say its unfair to the other Canadian ladies who competed. In another sense, the fact that its an international pageant, she is essentially representing the country as well, and the fact that she was dishonest and caused such a controversy kind of negatively affects the perception of Canada too, in my opinion.

    To be honest though, I don't really care for Miss Universe pageants so... meh.
  • NPB-XKNPB-XK Thread Hijacker Area-Sexy-One - MontrPosts: 5,107Member

    SUPERSTAR

    edited April 2012
    Megan Fox was a dude, guys, but it remains a secret... No one knows...
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  • christelle-gchristelle-g ~Pacific Island~Posts: 808Member
    Honestly, I've always wondered why they let the ones that have gone under the knife join the pageant. That's quite unfair for some contestants. In some countries, being 'natural' is one of the criteria.

    Yes, allowing a transgender to join the pageant is discrimination. but If I was a candidate and lost the crown against a trangender, I would feel cheated.
    For a transgender, she indeed look beautiful and no one would have guessed that she was a man. She shouldn't have lied in the first place though.
  • NikkyNikky As Far As The Sea Flows VirginiaPosts: 583Member

    IDOL

    As long as they have undergone the full procedure to be 100% woman, take all of the regimen pills, then they are a woman and are even legally a woman. So yes, I think they should be allowed to compete. Under those circumstances; they are a woman, live as a woman. I see no problem with it.
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  • SunniRiseSunniRise Someone... feed me. Baker StreetPosts: 3,291Member

    SUPERSTAR

    edited April 2012
    :crazy: :blink: :wacko:

    I think that Miss. Universe should be for naturally born women.
    I think there should be a Transgender Miss Universe.
    I think that both winners of the two beauty pageant should then compete for the final crown.

    There problem solved.


    Hey... why don't we have a MISTER UNIVERSE?
    lol I want to see hot men fight for their crown...
    TOP would win, even if he doesn't join the pageant.
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  • potatoandchipspotatoandchips Posts: 35Member
    I don't think I agree with this. Miss Universe is for women, NATURAL-BORN women. I think it's quite unfair for Miss Canada to join. She should have just joined in some other competitions for Transgenders. ^^v
  • dreamerismdreamerism Posts: 189Member
    edited April 2012
    I've got a question about all this, and this stems from a video I've seen in psychology class where such situations have actually occurred.

    Say someone was born with both male and female genitals, and the parents were asked to pick whether they wanted a boy or a girl. Given both choices, and taking a considerable amount of time, they decide that they want a boy. Huzzah. Years pass, and the parents are starting to notice a distinct problem. Bear with me and my stereotypical examples. Instead of participating in sports and liking trucks, soccer, football etc., their kid genuinely enjoys putting on makeup, and dressing up in his mother's clothes. Basically, their kid's mindset is almost 100% like the mind of a girl. Turns out that even though the parents wanted a boy, their kid had already chosen a gender for himself right from the start. Of course, the natural response of a parent would be to undergo surgery so "he" can be a "she". Everything is all right in the world. Yay. But does this mean that "she" is no longer allowed to join in the pageant(assuming that she wants to)? Would the blame be placed on the parents for not choosing the right gender from the beginning? 

    Gah, this is so confusing to me T__T;;
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  • SunniRiseSunniRise Someone... feed me. Baker StreetPosts: 3,291Member

    SUPERSTAR

    dreamerism wrote on 16 April 2012 - 02:11 PM:

    I've got a question about all this, and this stems from a video I've seen in psychology class where such situations have actually occurred.

    Say someone was born with both male and female genitals, and the parents were asked to pick whether they wanted a boy or a girl. Given both choices, and taking a considerable amount of time, they decide that they want a boy. Huzzah. Years pass, and the parents are starting to notice a distinct problem. Bear with me and my stereotypical examples. Instead of participating in sports and liking trucks, soccer, football etc., their kid genuinely enjoys putting on makeup, and dressing up in his mother's clothes. Basically, their kid's mindset is almost 100% like the mind of a girl. Turns out that even though the parents wanted a boy, their kid had already chosen a gender for himself right from the start. Of course, the natural response of a parent would be to undergo surgery so "he" can be a "she". Everything is all right in the world. Yay. But does this mean that "she" is no longer allowed to join in the pageant(assuming that she wants to)? Would the blame be placed on the parents for not choosing the right gender from the beginning? 

    Gah, this is so confusing to me T__T;;


    No one is to blame here.
    A person can have a different mindset than what reality had set for them.
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  • LoliTzAlLoliTzAl somewherePosts: 91Member

    ROOKIE

    dreamerism wrote on 15 April 2012 - 09:11 PM:

    Say someone was born with both male and female genitals, 


    S/he was born This way Thus made her elegible for the pageant contest. In contrast Ms. Canada was born with a male genital and changed into female ones
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