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East Asian genetic relationships

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  • kurumiikurumii Posts: 105Member

    ROOKIE

    Well, I've never seen anything in the media that promotes interracial marriages. It's more about accepting people who weren't originally Korean than encouraging others to marry people from other countries.Maybe you should give us some examples.

    this thread is going off topic too. It was originally about east asian genetic studies, and now it's about how Korean people should keep their bloodline pure. Maybe this is what the OP really wanted to discuss?
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  • AltaicTigerAltaicTiger Posts: 26Member, Banned
    edited February 2012
    Let's get back on topic. 

    Koreans have a heating system called "ondol". Ondol is also used in Siberia and North America. Interestingly, another recent genetic study found that the Korean genome (out of Korean, Chinese, two Europeans and a Yoruban from Africa) correlates the best with the Native American genome. 

    The Saqqaq people are people who migrated from Eastern Siberia to North America and Greenland. They are closely related to the Koryaks and Chukchi's of Eastern Siberia. 

    nature08835-f3.2.jpg



    27zkxua.jpg


    The Korean genome correlates the best to the Saqqaq (Native American) genome. 

    Native Americans
    Quechuawomanandchild.jpg
    Mumii
  • AltaicTigerAltaicTiger Posts: 26Member, Banned
    Genetic study found that Japanese mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) is very mixed. 
    35251445jp6.png
  • koreanballadskoreanballads Posts: 714Member

    IDOL

    edited February 2012
    kurumii wrote on 15 February 2012 - 01:01 AM:

    Well, I've never seen anything in the media that promotes interracial marriages. It's more about accepting people who weren't originally Korean than encouraging others to marry people from other countries.Maybe you should give us some examples.


    Wrongo!

    http://www.koreatime...137_104565.html

    "Third, the Roh administration marked a watershed in the  history of immigration policy. The policy under the Roh administration  shifted its focus from regulation and control to social integration to  ensure better treatment and human rights protection for foreigners."

    http://english.ntdtv...eign-wives.html

    "....the government is encouraging inter-country marriages."

    http://www.koreatime.../117_80608.html

    "Korea needs to become more open society"

    http://news.naver.co...&aid=0000074346

    "Future policies will also handle national campaigns and multicultural  programs to create general social acceptance toward foreign nationals  and raise public awareness."

    All of these articles explicitly or implicitly promote miscegenation.  If you promote immigration, you are, by extension, promoting interracial marriage ---> the diluting of the Korean bloodline.

    this thread is going off topic too. It was originally about east asian genetic studies, and now it's about how Korean people should keep their bloodline pure. Maybe this is what the OP really wanted to discuss?


    One charge often leveled at Koreans is that they aren't as pure as they'd like to think.  This gives their claims regarding genetic uniqueness/preservation scientific backing.

    AltaicTiger wrote on 14 February 2012 - 11:04 PM:

    There  is nothing wrong in saying that you want to preserve your own race.  However there's something wrong when someone says that they want to  destroy a certain race through promoting racial mixing.  The  result of racial mixing? You won't seeing that race in the next few  decades or however long it takes for the gene pool to change completely.  It only takes a few immigrants marrying and mixing for this to happen  and it's disturbing to me as a Korean.  However there is  something wrong with encouraging it through the media and judging a  country's progression through its embracing of multi-racialism. 


    Agreed.  This is why it's so dangerous.  It's deceptive because the promotion of miscegenation actually destroys the fundamental quality of being Korean, gene by gene.
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  • AltaicTigerAltaicTiger Posts: 26Member, Banned
    edited February 2012
    koreanballads wrote on 16 February 2012 - 06:00 PM:

    Wrongo!

    http://www.koreatime...137_104565.html

    "Third, the Roh administration marked a watershed in the  history of immigration policy. The policy under the Roh administration  shifted its focus from regulation and control to social integration to  ensure better treatment and human rights protection for foreigners."

    http://english.ntdtv...eign-wives.html

    "....the government is encouraging inter-country marriages."

    http://www.koreatime.../117_80608.html

    "Korea needs to become more open society"

    http://news.naver.co...&aid=0000074346

    "Future policies will also handle national campaigns and multicultural  programs to create general social acceptance toward foreign nationals  and raise public awareness."

    All of these articles explicitly or implicitly promote miscegenation.  If you promote immigration, you are, by extension, promoting interracial marriage ---> the diluting of the Korean bloodline.



    One charge often leveled at Koreans is that they aren't as pure as they'd like to think.  This gives their claims regarding genetic uniqueness/preservation scientific backing.



    Agreed.  This is why it's so dangerous.  It's deceptive because the promotion of miscegenation actually destroys the fundamental quality of being Korean, gene by gene.


    It's not just Korean government that's promoting mixed marriages, it's also most countries these days. Their media is brainwashing people into thinking mixed marriages are the norm and that society should be accepting of people from mixed marriages. 

    Of course, we shouldn't discriminate against people born under mixed marriages, but promoting them and giving them special attention is going too far. 

    In Korea, many kids born from white fathers and Korean mothers are given special attention. However let's not go off-topic now and stay on topic: East Asian genetic relationships. If anyone wants to ask anything about genetics or contribute to this discussion please feel free to do so. 
  • KeayaraKeayara fizzerific AustraliaPosts: 653Member
    AltaicTiger wrote on 17 February 2012 - 09:08 PM:

    It's not just Korean government that's promoting mixed marriages, it's also most countries these days. Their media is brainwashing people into thinking mixed marriages are the norm and that society should be accepting of people from mixed marriages. 

    Of course, we shouldn't discriminate against people born under mixed marriages, but promoting them and giving them special attention is going too far. 

    In Korea, many kids born from white fathers and Korean mothers are given special attention. However let's not go off-topic now and stay on topic: East Asian genetic relationships. If anyone wants to ask anything about genetics or contribute to this discussion please feel free to do so. 

    Brainwashing and promotion are 2 very different things.
  • koreanballadskoreanballads Posts: 714Member

    IDOL

    Keayara wrote on 17 February 2012 - 06:58 PM:

    Brainwashing and promotion are 2 very different things.


    Care to elaborate how this distinction applies to miscegenation in Korea?
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  • This thread reminds me of Social Dwarfism
  • robkimrobkim Posts: 2Member
    Interesting that a thread that purportedly began as a curious examination of genetics has degenerated into its true meaning: a racist/nationalist rant. I think you're besmirching the Korean people's reputation with your crap, and geez, you're only 22. So hateful. 
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  • koreanballadskoreanballads Posts: 714Member

    IDOL

    robkim wrote on 20 February 2012 - 12:27 PM:

    Interesting that a thread that purportedly began as a curious examination of genetics has degenerated into its true meaning: a racist/nationalist rant. I think you're besmirching the Korean people's reputation with your crap, and geez, you're only 22. So hateful. 


    Ah, yes.  Assertions completely devoid of substance.  Real persuasive.
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  • ChristinaisweirdChristinaisweird Posts: 2,147Member

    ROOKIE

    So, what did it say about other asian countries, like cambodia, vietnam, thailand, india, etc.?
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  • sadeeshsadeesh Posts: 57New Member
    koreans are siberians. they are closely related to native americans and eskimoes. japanese have 50% korean genes basically.

    Chinese are their own both north and south
  • EclecticEclectic lvl 1 red mage limboPosts: 2,213Member

    SUPERSTAR

    edited February 2012
    robkim wrote on 20 February 2012 - 12:27 PM:

    Interesting that a thread that purportedly began as a curious examination of genetics has degenerated into its true meaning: a racist/nationalist rant. I think you're besmirching the Korean people's reputation with your crap, and geez, you're only 22. So hateful. 

    +1

    Rules:
    No trolling and racism should be allowed. This is a scientific study by geneticists.

    I said no trolls are allowed, so I don't see how anyone is trolling in this thread except you.

    Be proud that you are pure Korean because Koreans are the only pure Northeast Asians.

    You are correct. Japanese are mongrels in that they are a fusion between proto-Korean populations (Jeolla Koreans to be exact) and Jomon (think of pale Australian Aboriginies or South Indians aka Australoids). Btw I don't mean "mongrels" in an offensive way.

    uh huh, sure you don’t. that’s why you chose not to use more neutral-sounding scientific terms like multiracial, crossbreeds, hybrids, etc. instead
    Pot_Meet_Kettle.jpg

    What's the purpose of these statistics..?

    yea seriously

    OP's response to that innocent question:
    To explain East Asian genetic relationships so that people can become aware why different ethnic groups have different characteristics (phenotypes) and the genetic relationships between different ethnic groups in Asia.

    actually, you’re pretty much just trying to prove/show to the world (or just this forum) that….(see the following bold)

    Basically what the chart shows is that Koreans are the most pure Northeast Asian (Altaic peoples)

    Even then, that’s great and all that you found genetic "proof" that Koreans are the purest of the pure. So….now what? What can you do with this information? Or rather, what are you going to do with this information?

    The original post reminds me of another troll thread in another forum.......

    indeed you are correct, as I have frequented that “other” forum a couple years back, and it was frequent threads such as this one that made me eventually leave....
    (hint: the forum's acronym is AF and the owner’s name is Ben….)

    "This genetic study shows that genetics are a result of both geographical location and the effects of intermixing with local populations."
    obvious statement is obvious. you didn't need to state/justify korean pure-bloodedness to make such an observation...

    "If you've been to Seoul, it is already pretty multicultural and many Koreans are very open to foreigners. There are districts in Seoul which have Mongolian, Chinese and Filipino communities (just to list some of them). Korea is already too welcoming to multiculturalism, in fact."
    to be fair and impartial, shouldn’t you also add a converse statement as well? such as how there are (permanent) overseas Korean communities worldwide (just like any other race)? (and not just in the United States, by the way)




    with OP’s rhetoric on multiculturalism, especially on the third page, it seems he may find some reluctant allies at stormfront (if he hasn’t done so already)
    “Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows.”
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  • koreanballadskoreanballads Posts: 714Member

    IDOL

    edited February 2012
    Eclectic Asian wrote on 22 February 2012 - 09:35 PM:

    Even then, that’s great and all that you found genetic "proof" that Koreans are the purest of the pure. So….now what? What can you do with this information? Or rather, what are you going to do with this information?

    with OP’s rhetoric on multiculturalism, especially on the third page, it seems he may find some reluctant allies at stormfront (if he hasn’t done so already)


    The implications of the data have been debated continuously ITT, with very little substantive arguments coming from the pro-miscegenation side.

    Stormfront is a site for white supremacists, who have an entirely different audience in mind.  The white "race" is full of inherent contradictions and differs quite clearly from the Korean ethnic group; the white "race" is probably one of the least pure "races" around.  This is more of a red herring than anything.
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  • GodotologyGodotology I'm good 'til the last drop Posts: 6,374Administrator

    ADMIN

    koreanballads wrote on 23 February 2012 - 09:27 AM:

    The implications of the data have been debated continuously ITT, with very little substantive arguments coming from the pro-miscegenation side.

    Stormfront is a site for white supremacists, who have an entirely different audience in mind.  The white "race" is full of inherent contradictions and differs quite clearly from the Korean ethnic group; the white "race" is probably one of the least pure "races" around.  This is more of a red herring than anything.

    Race is nothing more than a social construct as its a method societies have used to group different peoples together, yet in reality you have many "grey" areas because there's no such thing as distinct separations between the groups as there are many groups that lie in between two categories that create a graduate transition.
    Similarly debating the "purity" of races or ethnic groups is also pointless to an extent because people, language, and culture are fluid. They are always changing over time. People are always migrating and mixing. Today you could argue the number of new migrants settling in Korea, and the number of Koreans migrating abroad and assimilating with other population groups, but it was always like that in history. the Korean peninsula for example had many diverse kingdoms and even different ethnic groups before it was united. People from different parts of Asia were going in and out all the time.. either for trade, conquest, etc. Even incredibly isolated areas, such as some of the Pacific Island nations, had some point in history where their cultural and ethnic make up changed due to migration.
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  • shastashasta Posts: 24Member
    edited February 2012
    interesting thread, so many types of asian
    a1006f3a.png
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  • EclecticEclectic lvl 1 red mage limboPosts: 2,213Member

    SUPERSTAR

    edited February 2012
    koreanballads wrote on 23 February 2012 - 09:27 AM:

    Stormfront is a site for white supremacists, who have an entirely different audience in mind. 

    yes, i am aware of that. to be fair, they claim to be white "nationalists" or "separatists" but there's always those fringe members that have a supremacist agenda. anyways, i made that earlier comment that OP may find "reluctant" allies there is because a good number of members there actually respect East Asians in terms of their respective culture and relatively higher population homogeneity. how do i know this? i curiously (months/years back) lurked through their "Opposing Views" subforum just to see if there was any good debate thread that challenged their beliefs.
    if i'm not mistaken, there was a frequent poster in that subforum who goes by the username of china#1
    “Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows.”
  • koreanballadskoreanballads Posts: 714Member

    IDOL

    edited February 2012
    Godotology wrote on 23 February 2012 - 10:19 AM:

    Race is nothing more than a social construct as its a method societies have used to group different peoples together, yet in reality you have many "grey" areas because there's no such thing as distinct separations between the groups as there are many groups that lie in between two categories that create a graduate transition.

    No disagreement here.

    Similarly debating the "purity" of races or ethnic groups is also pointless to an extent because people, language, and culture are fluid.

    You are conflating race for ethnicity, as these terms are not interchangeable.  You could say "Chinese people are 'Asian'", but the reverse - "'Asians' are Chinese". would not be true.  The same is true for "Jews are 'white'", but not "Whites' are Jews".

    It is true that people, language, and culture are fluid but the genetic distinctness of Koreans puts them in a very unique position.  Consider the following:

    Imagine if the geographical boundary that makes up Korea today was just what it meant to be "Korean".  Imagine taking each individual currently living in Korea today and magically transporting them to Island K.  Now imagine bringing in 75 million random individuals from America and placing them in Korea. Let's call them "New Koreans".  Which group of people would you consider to be "Korean"?  Obviously the inhabitants of Island K.

    Now imagine if all the inhabitants of Island K somehow magically lost their ability to speak Korean, but these new Koreans somehow acquired the ability to speak the Korean language.  Now which group would be considered Korean?  Still the inhabitants of Island K.

    Now imagine if every single aspect of Korean culture was lost by the inhabitants of Island K, but learned by the new Koreans.  Which group would be considered Korean?  The inhabitants of Island K.

    This thought experiment was designed to tease out the essential quality of what makes Koreans Korean - their bloodline (operating under the assumption that the studies posted by the OP are true).

    When people discuss the purity of the Korean people, they don't refer to the Korean language, or Korean culture, rather it is the individuals who share blood ties to each other, separate and distinct from all other people.

    If you accept these premises, then it's pretty clear why the purity of the Korean people serves as the crux for any debate about immigration, interracial marriage, and nationality.

    They are always changing over time.  People are always migrating and mixing.  Today you could argue the number of new migrants settling in Korea, and the number of Koreans migrating abroad and assimilating with other population groups, but it was always like that in history.  the Korean peninsula for example had many diverse kingdoms and even different ethnic groups before it was united.  People from different parts of Asia were going in and out all the time.. either for trade, conquest, etc.  Even incredibly isolated areas, such as some of the Pacific Island nations, had some point in history where their cultural and ethnic make up changed due to migration.

    People are migrating and mixing, true.  This is why the implications of the OP's data on immigration, citizenship, multiculturalism, etc. are being debated so vociferously here.  These determine how "Korean" Koreans remain Korean.

    Contrary to your assertions, it was not always like that in history, especially when you conduct a comparative study.  Take for example, "America".  Native Americans are true "Americans" which means the European colonists who live in the geographical boundaries of "America" today - the majority of "Americans" today - are actually foreigners.  This is completely different from the history of the Korean people.  The current geographical location of modern Korea has been inhabited by the same native people throughout history, for the most part: "Studies of polymorphisms in the human Y-chromosome have so far produced evidence to suggest that the Korean people have a long history as a distinct, mostly endogamous ethnic group, with successive waves of people moving to the peninsula and three major Y-chromosome haplogroups.[18]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koreans Then you have the OP, which indicates a comparative lack of ASI admixture.

    I acknowledge that the Korean diaspora has, in effect, diluted the purity of the Korean people, insofar as diaspora members marrying non-Koreans and producing hybrid offspring.  However, there is a distinction between these hybrids being further absorbed into the majority Korean gene pool - the Koreans currently living in Korea - vs. their diasporic locations.  Ultimately however, the mere existence of hybrids necessitates a dilution of the larger Korean people as a whole, which might be fine for diasporic Koreans in other multicultural nations like America where they would be absorbed into the larger American population, but not Korea where the original gene pool lies.

    If Korea embraces foreigners then it will necessarily erase, or dilute, for lack of a better word, just what it means to be "Korean"...unless every foreigner in Korea somehow does not marry a Korean, which is obviously not within the realm of possibilities.
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  • koreanballadskoreanballads Posts: 714Member

    IDOL

    edited February 2012
    Eclectic Asian wrote on 23 February 2012 - 03:04 PM:

    yes, i am aware of that. to be fair, they claim to be white "nationalists" or "separatists" but there's always those fringe members that have a supremacist agenda.  anyways, i made that earlier comment that OP may find "reluctant" allies there is because a good number of members there actually respect East Asians in terms of their respective culture and relatively higher population homogeneity.  how do i know this? i curiously (months/years back) lurked through their "Opposing Views" subforum just to see if there was any good debate thread that challenged their beliefs.
    if i'm not mistaken, there was a frequent poster in that subforum who goes by the username of china#1



    They have nothing to stand on, as any claims about "white purity" are completely contradictory, laughable, and easily dismissible to boot.  If they are supremacist, well that's even worse; no "race" is better than any other.

    It's pretty obvious why some white supremacists might want to "ally" with Asians and to that I say, such delusions are symptomatic of their flawed logic.  No self-respecting Asian would want to have anything to do with such an alliance in the first place, see: the history of white-Asian relations.
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  • EclecticEclectic lvl 1 red mage limboPosts: 2,213Member

    SUPERSTAR

    edited February 2012
    koreanballads wrote on 23 February 2012 - 07:16 PM:

    They have nothing to stand on, as any claims about "white purity" are completely contradictory, laughable, and easily dismissible to boot.  If they are supremacist, well that's even worse; no "race" is better than any other.

    It's pretty obvious why some white supremacists might want to "ally" with Asians and to that I say, such delusions are symptomatic of their flawed logic.  No self-respecting Asian would want to have anything to do with such an alliance in the first place, see: the history of white-Asian relations.


    yeah, i think the German-Japanese alliance (along with Italy) in World War II was out of strategic convenience, and then they would go against each other after total Axis victory.

    speaking of white-Asian relations, we have to analyze it as a whole instead of thinking only about specific examples that nationalists can use as fuel for their agenda.

    and both races have "benefited" from each other in several ways, such as the following examples:

    a ) Europe to Asia: Rangaku
    b ) Asia (mostly China) to Europe: paper, gunpowder, etc.




    as an addendum to my previous post: another reason why some members at stormfront admire asians is that in general, of all the non-white groups, they tend to have lower crime rates compared to other non-whites groups like blacks and hispanics.(note: i'm not showing proof for this because i'm not stating it as fact but merely an observation from what i read in that forum)
    this also feeds into the whole model minority thing, but that's a whole different topic.
    “Idealism is what precedes experience. Cynicism is what follows.”
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